His Divine Grace Çréla Bhakti Rakñaka Çrédhara Deva Goswämé Mahäräj
13 th, 14 th.12.81
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : … "I grant you that, and after that you will get Me. You will get both. But what for you came to Me in the beginning, you'll get that also, and you'll get Myself also."
And Druva naturally he had his affection towards his mother, who really sent him to this direction. So vartma-pradarçaka-guru , not only mundane connection but the spiritual connection also he got from her, so he could not forget her. He did not ask any favour for his father or brother or anyone else but mother. Why? His mother was the cause of his present wealth, so some sort of gratitude he had naturally for his mother, and asked that she should also be granted such grace. His mother was not really Guru but vartma-pradarçaka, gave suggestion to take the path towards the Lord.
And what Prabhupäda wrote, that we consider to be his modesty, his humility. "That one of my disciples will help me to go there." That is good will for the disciple, blessing. This is taking, he's seeing his disciple so great, not ordinary servant of Guru. Disciple is not a servant of the Guru, as if this is the standpoint or the vision of Guru to the disciple. Disciple should think that Guru is all in all, but Guru does not say that he is my servant. He says that, "The soul I have offered to the Deity and he's my Gurudeva, he's my (pucher?) Even an ordinary flower or fruit if we offer it to the Deity then that flower we cannot enjoy but we are to serve that flower, we are to touch that flower on our head, which is offered already. So Guru offers some soul towards the divine feet of Kåñëa and he sees that there is a pure thing coming in connection with Kåñëa. That is my, I should have some reverence towards him. He's always dedicated towards Kåñëa. Whatever is dedicated, whatever comes in connection with Kåñëa, that should be considered as pure and with some reverence we are to deal with that. That is the real vision of the Guru of uttama adhikäré. Hare Kåñëa.
He says rather, his own Guru's vaibhava. "My Gurudeva has given so many things to help me in my activity, in my service to Kåñëa. I can't serve Kåñëa alone, so my Gurudeva, to help me in my service, he has given so many assistants to me in my work, in my service towards Kåñëa." That is his vision, generally.
But when Gurudeva comes to chastise, to punish a disciple, he's in pralarpita vagra?
At that time he considers from the normal standpoint that he's beside himself. The special will of Kåñëa has descended in him to deal with the disciples in that way. When he thinks 'I know' he does not know, 'and you must do this, otherwise I shall punish you.' This attitude is abnormal; this attitude is Guru that is abnormal. Mahäprabhu also has said, mention in, when He was teaching Sanätana Goswämé, pralap And our Prabhupäda [Bhaktisiddhänta Saraswaté Öhäkura] also used that word pralap (pralapita vagra?)
That is a temporary egoistic feeling that descends in Guru when he considers that, "I am to punish him, I am to teach him," in this way, that is not his normal position. The normal position, he's the servant, and he's meant to serve all, even including his disciples, serving, but service in the spiritual sense, service.
And Sanätana Goswämé, Mahäprabhu says, pralap. I forget the …….. pralap
Our Guru Mah äräj mentions in a letter when he's addressing to a particular disciple, "This is my (pralapita vagra?) my irrelevant talk to that particular disciple is this, that he should not do, behave in such a way. This is my irrelevant, I am abnormal, I say like that. (pralapita vagra?) I pose myself in the position of a Guru and him as my disciple and I have a right to control him, chastise him, abuse him, to punish him, that is not my normal position but some acquired tendency. By the divine will some sort of tendency comes in me and I become beside myself and behave in this way."
And Mahäprabhu also showing such attitude when He's giving His advice to Sanätana Goswämé, "That what I say to you, this is My pralap My abnormal talk that I know about Kåñëa and I have come to teach you, but really I feel that so many valuable things are going in a current passing through Me to you and I do not understand their real meaning. To favour you, Kåñëa, through Me, is passing a current towards you. I feel, but I do not know the proper meaning of that." In this way Mahäprabhu says to Sanätana.
I forget that, where, Gaura Hari bol! (pralap)
ämi - eka bätula , tumi - dvitéya bätula
ataeva tomäya ämäya ha-i sama-tula
[Mahäprabhu said: "I am insane, mad, bäula - pägala - eccentric. I am one eccentric, and you are another. Therefore, we two are of the same class."]
[Caitanya-caritämåta, Madhya-lélä, 8.291]
In Rämänanda Räya's case, (pralap)
Gaura Hari bol! Gaura Hari bol!
Posing, by the will of Kåñëa that sort of posing comes in any heart. And that makes their thing as an instrument. In any place He can make anyone instrument of His, as agent of His will. In Nakula Brahmacäré also sometimes used like that, that äveça , some sort of …
Devotee : Enthusiasm?
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : …some mood, I think, to create some mood and through that mood to do some work. To create a particular kind of mood in a person and to utilise that mood for His central activity, in any place, He creates a particular mood in any heart and utilises that as His centre of doing something outside in the environment, äveça . Just as sometimes any god may capture any man's heart or brain. Sometimes the ghost also comes and captures anyone's consciousness and makes it his instrument to do this and that, äveça. That sort of inspiration, something like inspiration, a particular mood is created in any place and there from if it is utilised as the centre to do His work that is äveça.
Nitäi Gaura Hari bol! Nitäi Gaura Hari bol! Nitäi Gaura Hari bol!
You have come here direct, or come to market and …?
Devotee : Direct.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Do you like to take prasädam here in the noon or go back there before taking food?
Devotee : We'll take prasäda in noontime.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Gaura Hari bol! Gaura Hari bol!
Devotee : Mahäräj.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Yes?
Devotee : What is the meaning of the word kåpa , guru- kåpa ? And how does it come through Guru and to tell the difference?
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Kåpa , Guru's relation to disciple is all kåpa . His will to extend what he has got within him, the extension of that to the disciple, that is kåpa , his will. And accordingly his order is the medium, and his will he wants to assert through the order to the disciple, and because that is the service for the purpose of the satisfaction of Kåñëa that comes out as kåpa . Without kåpa we cannot get the connection, kåpa from the higher, that is the connection from up to down. That will, the current, the flow, that is kåpa . And by sev ä we can invite that kåpa with our earnest desire to serve, that can draw that, his sympathy, and his willing extension of the goodness what he has got in his heart. And that is about the Supreme Entity. A moneyed man can show kåpa only by giving money. An educated man can give us kåpa by extending his knowledge towards us, in this way. But the yog é-guru, jïäné-guru, karmé-guru, so many devotee Guru, Guru'skåpa to the disciple, that means his extension, his sympathy, his good will, to distribute that to the disciple. And the disciple when he has got such earnest hankering attitude he can receive that, by the serving:
tad viddhi praëipätena , paripraçnena sevayä
[upadekñyanti te jïänaà, jïäninas tattva darçinaù]
["You will be able to attain all this knowledge by satisfying the enlightened spiritual master with prostrate obeisances, relevant enquiry, and sincere service. Great souls who are most expert in scriptural knowledge and endowed with direct realisation of the Supreme Absolute Truth will teach you that divine knowledge."] [ Bhagavad-gétä , 4.34]
Only serving attitude can draw that grace, His will, sweet will, good will, good will kåpa .
Nitäi Gaura Hari bol! Nitäi Gaura Hari bol! Nitäi Gaura Hari bol!
Dayal Nitäi. Dayal Nitäi. Dayal Nitäi.
Kåpa , to extend the good will, and the purity of the kåpa or good will depends on the realisation of the person who is extending the kåpa.
Devotee : Mahäräj.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Yes?
Devotee : Yesterday you were saying, you mentioned Kåñëadäsa Kaviräja's humility:
jagäi mädhäi haite muïi se päpiñöha , puréñera kéöa haite muïi se laghiñöha
mora näma çune yei tära puëya kñaya , mora näma laya yei tära päpa haya
[Kåñëadäsa Kaviräja Goswämé says: "I am worse than a worm in stool. When Jagäi and Madhäi came in the relativity of Mahäprabhu they were considered to be the worst sinners, but I am worse than them. My sins are so dirty no one can even dream such things. I am such a great sinner that whoever will hear about me, dirt and sin will enter him through his coming in contact with my name. Sin will enter one who once hears my name, and his good qualities will vanish."] [Caitanya-caritämåta, Ädé-lélä, 5.205-6]
And also, Sanätana Goswämé tells…
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Sanätana Goswämé's dainya, that exceeds all, because he's not abusing him but he also mentions his predecessors, that we do not find anywhere. "I am so mean, so low," it is mentioned in many places. But "I am born in a mean line, my lineage also is mean," this sentiment we do not find anywhere.
neti vamsa janma moy neti vichar jal?
He's abusing his own origin also. I did not find it anywhere. It is easy to abuse one's own self but it is not so easy to abuse the very origin. But we find that there, in him only. But the opposite is Jéva Goswämé. He told that, "our lineage is a very dignified one, they're brähmaëa, they're royal family, and they came from Mahärastra to Puré and from there to the banks of the Ganges. They're of dignified position, which has produced Rüpa and Sanätana, that type of devotion never to be found anywhere," that has been reached by Jéva Goswämé. "The devotee of the type of Rüpa and Sanätana never to be found anywhere," Jéva Goswämé has told, "Rüpa and Sanätana type is very high type."
Once in Gauòa-Maëòala, in Jaiva Dharma we find one Vaiñëava däsa he's asking his Guru, "The bhakti is nitya, or it comes from Caitanyadev or Rämänuja or someone, or it is eternal?" Then the Guru is answering, "It is nitya, it is eternal," he says, "but I asked Sanätana Goswämé, bhagavät-pärñada, who is eternal paraphernalia amongst those of Mahäprabhu, I put this question to him in Våndävana. And Sanätana Goswämé answered, 'Yes, bhakti is eternal, we find in the Veda and in many places, but if you have got special regard for me then I shall come to say that what Çré Caitanyadev brought here, this type of bhakti could not be found before Him." Anarpita-caréà cirät karuëayävatérëaù kalau.
[anarpita-caréà cirät karuëayävatérëaù kalau
samarpayitum unnatojjvala-rasäà sva-bhakti-çriyam
hariù puraöa-sundara-dyuti-kadamba-sandépitaù
sadä hådaya-kandare sphuratu vaù çacé-nandanaù ]
["May that Lord, who is known as the son of Çrématé Çacédevé be transcendentally situated in the innermost chambers of your heart. Resplendent with the radiance of molten gold, He has appeared in this age of Kali by His causeless mercy to bestow what no incarnation ever offered before: the most sublime and radiant spiritual knowledge of the mellow taste of His service."] [ Caitanya-caritämåta, Ädi-lélä, 1.4]
Which has never been bestowed previously, He took that quality bhakti in this world for the ordinary people. What is reserved in Goloka, only for the selected few in Vraja, He has taken down that in this world for the public. So Sanätana Goswämé says, 'this is my opinion.' But in the çästra we find that bhakti is eternal, but the type, the prema-bhakti what Caitanyadev has brought down here, never experienced and mentioned anywhere we find. That is the realisation of Sanätana. So Sanätana was such type of devotee.
prabhu kahe , - "tomä sparçi ätma pavitrite
bhakti-bale pära tumi brahmäëòa çodhite
[The Lord replied, "I am touching you just to purify Myself because by the force of your devotional service you can purify the whole universe.]
[Caitanya-caritämåta, Madhya-lélä, 20. 56]
Mahäprabhu goes to embrace him and Sanätana is running away, "No, no, don't touch me. I am meanest of the mean. So untouchable, so don't touch me my Lord, You won't touch me. I am meanest of the mean."
Mahäprabhu forcibly embracing. "To purify Me I touch you Sanätana, not to purify you, but by your touching I may think I will be satisfied that I am being purified." Tomä sparçi ätma pavitrite bhakti-bale pära tumi brahmäëòa çodhite. "You have got such type of intense devotion that by dint of that you can purify the whole of the universe."
Hare Kåñëa. Sanätana.
Devotee : nitya sange nitya jnati?
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : (ni jnati?) But (jnati?) you never mention, I do not find any mention about the (jnati?). Of course, in the case of Prahl äda, might have been mentioned, (daitya ghuli?) That my origin from the demonic line, but that is a gross thing, gross thing, that is already condemned. (daitya, dewon daitya?) And here, the devotional brähmaëa school, there also Sanätana says that,
nit jnati nit sange nicar yar?
"Everything is, only my fortune is that I have got Your connection. This is my only wealth."
Devotee : Mahäräj. Madhväcärya (Udupi?)
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Yes.
Devotee : That (Asvamadha?) that eight (madhas?)
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Yes.
Devotee : They say the caste is there, by birth, that cätur-varëyaà mayä såñöaà , that çloka, making different way than us. They're also from our guru-paramparä.
[cätur-varëyaà mayä såñöaà, guëa-karma-vibhägaçaù
tasya kartäram api mäà, viddhy akartäram avyayam ]
[ Kåñëa says: "According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable."] [Bhagavad-gétä, 4.13]
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Cätur-varëyaà mayä såñöaà , that is by principle. Generally we may accept that of the fleshy consideration, but from the extreme standpoint it is only guëa-karma-vibhägaçaù. In Bhägavata also it is explained,
yasya lal lakñaëaà proktaà, puàso varëäbhivyaïjakam
yad anyaträpi-dåçyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiçet
["If one shows the symptoms of being a brähmaëa, kñatriya, vaiçya or çüdra, as described above, even if he has appeared in a different class, he should be accepted according to those symptoms of classification."] [Çrémad-Bhägavatam, 7.11.35]
It is not accidental thing but it based on some principle, sattya-guëa. But Vaiñëava, Hari-bhakta, is nirguëa. So according to the degree of the devotion to Viñëu real varëäçrama has been based on the principle.
Devotee : If they are right or wrong?
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Who?
Devotee : The (Asvamadha Udupi?)
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : If they give the final consideration only with this flesh and bone then they're wrong, they do not recognise the very spirit as given in Bhägavatam . Just as if Devarñi Närada when he's speaking about the dharma to the assembly in the court of Yudhiñöhira Mahäräj, the brähmaëa lakñaëaà is this, kñatriya lakñaëaà is this, vaiçya is such, and çüdra is such. Their ideal is different according to their position. Now if we find that just in the case of Paraçuräma, son of a brähmaëa but His attitude is that of a kñatriya, so Paraçuräma should be given recognition as kñatriya not brähmaëa. At the same time Viçvämitra he comes from kñatriya school but his attitude, his nature is that of a brähmaëa, he should be given recognition as a brähmaëa. This is the purpose of the Närada's saying there. Generally you may take…
Devotee : In Gétä [ 4.13] this guëa-karma-vibhägaçaù…
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Guëa-karma , so brähmaëa's guëa is mentioned there - these are the qualifications of a brähmaëa. But if a brähmaëa is devoid of such guëa then he should be considered a (vetya? brahma-vetya ?)
Devotee : Guëa is by this birth or previous births?
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Not previous birth. Guëa is present there in his mind, the guëa, the attitude. He has got, a brähmaëa…
brahmani janati brahmana?
What, who is a brähmaëa ? The standard, the qualification has been written there. Not by who is a born brähmaëa he's a brähmaëa , (brahma janati brahmana?) Who is conscious of the spiritual substance he's a brähmaëa and that is the real criterion. And this is ordinary because just as a doctor's son may not be doctor, but doctor's son has got the facility of becoming a doctor. From his childhood he's seeing those bottles, the medicine, the test-tube, all these things he has got some experience. But still, if he's an idiot, he should not be considered as a doctor. So this is. A brähmaëa's son means by some previous good karma he has got the chance of being born in a brähmaëa family, and he gets the facility, facility of seeing and coming in contact and practices, all these things. But in spite of that, if he becomes an atheist he should not be considered a brähmaëa any longer.
Devotee : Not we are making, God is making brähmaëas .
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : God is making, God is making, God has made only principles, guëa-karma-vibhägaçaù . Not that brähmaëa's son is brähmaëa, çüdra's son is çüdra, then what is the meaning of the guëa-karma-vibhägaçaù? "I have created on this principle, the principle is this, guëa and karma, according to his quality and as well as his practice I have divided. But if that is found, this (jati?) brähmaëa and (vitya?) brähmaëa, but if come in a (jati?) brähmaëa but that quality of a brähmaëa is absent then he should not be considered a brähmaëa any longer."
Devotee : But the genetic science also do something.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : What to speak of that. Narak ä sura is son of Kåñëa and he's called ä sura . Do you know Narak ä sura? Have you heard his name, Narak ä sura?
Devotee : Yes, yes, I have.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : And he's whose son? Varähadeva's son; when the Lord came as Varäha, by His contact the Earth produced Narak ä sura, so son of Viñëu, but he's ä sura . What's this? And this brähmaëa also sattya-guëa and to nirguëa it is nothing. A brähmaëa can again become a çüdra, become an antyaja. But nirguëa if you can acquire once that won't be diminished, that is of permanent nature, the nirguëa quality is of permanent nature. But this is trifle, a brähmaëa can be again born as a çüdra. First one was a brähmaëa and then became dharma-varga (?), he was born in a (varga?) family. Do you know from Mahäbhärata dharma-varga (?), in his previous birth he was a brähmaëa. He was a minister's son of a king, brähmaëa minister, but by his bad karma next birth he became (baddha?) hunter. So it is vulnerable, going up and down. And what is nirguëa… nehäbhikrama-näço 'sti , pratyaväyo na vidyate, when once acquired it won't leave you any time. That is nirguëa.
nehäbhikrama-näço 'sti , pratyaväyo na vidyate
svalpam apy asya dharmasya , träyate mahato bhayät
["Even a small beginning in this devotional service cannot go in vain, nor can any loss be suffered. The most insignificant practice of such devotional service saves one from the all-devouring fear of repeated birth and death in this world."] [ Bhagavad-gétä , 2.40]
That is something else.
Devotee : But in ordinary sense we can find…
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : So, so in Bhägavatam:
vipräd-dvi-ñaò guëa yutäd aravindanäbha-
pädäravinda-vimukhät çvapacaà variñöham
manye tad-arpita-mano-vacane-hitärtha-
präëaà punäti sa kulaà na tu bhürimänaù
[If a brähmaëa has all twelve brahminical qualifications, but is not a devotee, and is averse to the lotus feet of the Lord, he is certainly lower than a dog eater who is a devotee but who has dedicated everything - mind, words, activities, life, and wealth - to the Supreme Lord Kåñëa. Such a devotee is superior to a brähmaëa because a devotee can purify his entire family, whereas the brähmaëa who is not a devotee is bound to be illusioned by the false prestige of his position and thus cannot purify even himself.] [ Çrémad-Bhägavatam , 7.9.10]
"I consider the son of a caëòäla to be, to hold the higher position than a son of a brähmaëa who is endowed with twelve qualities of a brähmaëa." Dvi-ñaò guëa , dvi means twice, ñaò guëa, six, twice six means twelve guëas of a brähmaëa. "And above that a caëòäla if he has got real bhakti, real devotion to You." It is mentioned there.
[The twelve qualities of a brähmaëa are: following religious principles, speaking truthfully, controlling the senses by undergoing austerities and penances, being free from jealousy, being intelligent, being tolerant, creating no enemies, performing yajïa, giving charity, being steady, being well versed in Vedic study, and observing vows.]
mäà hi pärtha vyapäçritya , ye 'pi syuù päpa-yonayaù
striyo vaiçyäs tathä çüdras , te 'pi yänti paräà gatim
["O son of Påthä, low-born persons of degraded lineage, women, merchants, or labourers - they also attain the supreme destination by taking full refuge in Me."]
[Bhagavad-gétä, 9.32]
"I am such that anyone coming in connection with Me, they achieve the highest position. And brähmaëa also if they come in My connection they will also attain. But without My connection, without the Vaiñëava connection, the brähmaëa they're vulnerable going up and down."
äbrahma-bhuvanäl lokäù , punar ävartino 'rjuna
[mäm upetya tu kaunteya, punar janma na vidyate]
["O Arjuna, from the planet of Lord Brahmä downwards, the residents of all planets are naturally subjected to repeated birth and death. But, O Kaunteya, upon reaching Me, there is no rebirth."] [Bhagavad-gétä, 8.16]
What to speak of brähmaëas, even Brahmä, (avecharde mangalam?) Brahmä is also to die, to suffer from disease, the Brahmä what of brähmaëas. The whole thing, that is sattya-guëa, sattya-guëa, and that is nirguëa. Sattya-guëa, guëa means vyädhi, guëa means vyädhi, this is not a positive, it is a negative character thing, guëa, and nirguëa is positive, and guëa is negative. It is vyädhi , means disease, but disease, a good disease and a bad disease. Brähmaëas means less disease, less serious, kñatriya, vaiçya, çüdra, serious disease. But this is the diseased part of the world, and the wholesome part, that is nirguëa, Vaikuëöha, etc. So guëa, sattya-guëa, that is less disease, disease of not very serious type, but still it is disease, sattya-guëa. Guëa, mäyä-guëa, it comes from mäyä. Mäyä means mä yä, misunderstanding, miscalculation. So brähmaëa, kñatriya, vaiçya, çüdra, all come from miscalculation, the wholesale under miscalculation, good and bad. Just as it is generally told that the stool, the stool, there is raw and there is dried stool. Dried stool is little better than the raw stool, ha, ha. Do you follow? Stool, human stool, dried and fresh, what will be better? The dried is a little better than the fresh stool. Do you follow? So brähmaëas are a dried stool, because it is found on misconception, mäyä, mäyä means misconception, erroneous. In the land, in the plane or jurisdiction of error, less error or grave error, but it is error. Madhva school they're more towards this flesh and blood, little partial there.
Devotee : They're also from our guru-paramparä .
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Hmm. Guru-paramparä , but Kåñëa had also Guru, Sandépané, but whom should we take higher, Sandépané or Kåñëa?
Then Madhva's Guru is Brahmä, Brahmä -sampradäya , Brahmä, Brahmä is Ädi Guru. That Brahmä cannot understand the ways of Kåñëa, brahmä-vimohana. In Våndävana these two chapters - brahmä-vimohana - Brahmä fails to understand the lélä of Kåñëa. It is there but Madhva has abolished those chapters, he did not accept that Brahmä, Ädi Guru, he cannot be deluded in such a way. He did not accept that. But we find in every place in other schools, Nimbarka, Rämänuja, there in Bhägavatam we find that brahmä-vimohana, two chapters. But Madhväcärya, then Madhväcärya, again we do not accept that, rather we hate that.
Madhväcärya says the gopés, gopés are (sarvesya?) - gopés in Våndävana they're prostitutes of the harem. But we can't accept that, with all due respect to him, we differ from him, and we hate this idea. We respect Rämänuja, but one (Viraha äcäryi ?) who is a commentator of Çrémad-Bhägavatam , his opinion is that Rädhäräëé, She was the avatära of Çurpanäkha, who was in the Räma lélä as Çurpanäkha, she came to be born as Rädhäräëé. We hate it. But we have got general respect for Rämänuja, because he conquered Çaìkaräcärya and pressed the bhakti over that.
We accept Mahäprabhu in toto and His interpretation of Bhägavatam , not others interpretation. And also we have got our arguments, our realisation for that, we feel that. So our reverence for the old äcäryas should be considered, then what, the Mahäprabhu: anarpita-caréà, what has never been given before You have taken that holiest thing to us, the Kåñëa. Amongst däsa-avatära, no mention about Him, He's rather, Baladeva rather is mentioned amongst däsa-avatära. Then, should we not have recognition for Kåñëa, Svayam-Bhagavän Kåñëa? Previous to that, Bhägavatam it is not mentioned anywhere, then should we not accept Kåñëa as He is the most original? So new things have, truth may evolve, and according to our inner tendency we are to accept and appreciate.
Devotee : We are very much proud of our guru-paramparä .
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Yes.
Devotee : If there is a different opinion…
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : I saw that Madhväcärya, when I was in charge of Madras, 1931 or so, the greatest amongst the äcäryas, Satyavan Tértha, (Utaradhi?) he was in charge of the (Utaradhi?) Maöha, eight Maöhas…
Devotee : Asta Maöha.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Asta Maöha, and some was entrusted with the worship of the Deity and some for preaching. And (Utaradhi?) Maöha was the greatest, at least the greatest number of followers, the (Utaradhi?) Maöha. And the äcärya was Satyavan Tértha. And when he went to Benares and other places he used to beat drum, "Whoever Mäyävädé you are, I have come, come, discuss with me. I shall prove that you are erroneous." Such type of a man he was. Then he came to Madras with elephants and horses and cows and so many, with big retinue he came, Madras, and so many followers, barristers, advocates, professors, followers.
We went to him, myself, Bana Mahäräj and this [Bhakti Dayita] Mädhav Mahäräj, at that time he was this Hayagréva Brahmachäri, approached him. We are always out to get some collection from anybody, we approached him that we want to have Deities to be installed in our Maöha, if you kindly can pay the cost we shall take the Deities. With this idea we went. Of course, he gave something, not the whole.
But then, he, with his disciples, he's sitting there, there is Gopäla Mürti nearby. And he's a sannyäsé, perhaps only one, and we two sannyäséns went there. And the (nilyasi nilmaskriya?) sannyäsés generally they do not bow down the head to any other, they're hesitating. Then he was an intelligent man, he told that "here is Gopäla" and we bowed down to Gopäla and he also bowed down to Gopäla at the same time, so the good manners finished there.
Now the talk began. In course of the talk the question of the Deities, the Arcä-Mürti came up. Then, "the Gopäla, that Madhväcärya himself got from somewhere and that Gopäla we have got and I am keeping that Gopäla Mürti with me and I am worshipping Him and doing my propaganda," in this way he represented. Then the Çré Mürti, the ontology of Çré Mürti, Deity, Arcä, that came in. And he told, his opinion, "That inside the Arcä-Mürti there is God." And our contention was the whole body, not an ordinary body. It may be seen by the fleshy eye as mineral or wood or stone or anything else, but the wholesale that is Bhagavän, cinmaya. It is not matter, not the spirit within matter, but whole body is a conscious representation. That was our point. We also cited scripture. deha-dehi-vibhägo 'yam,
nisyari vidyati kachit?
[deha-dehi-vibhägo 'yam, aviveka-kåtaù purä
jäti-vyakti-vibhägo 'yaà , yathä vastuni kalpitaù]
[Divisions of generalisation and specification, such as nationality and individuality, are the imaginations of persons who are not advanced in knowledge.]
[ Çrémad-Bhägavatam, 6.15.8]
In the case of the Deities we must not come to realise that there is some difference between the deha - the limb, the body - and the dehi - who is living inside the body. No distinction in the case of the Supreme Lord…
End of side A, start of side B, 13 th, 14 th.12.81