His Divine Grace Çréla Bhakti Rakñaka Çrédhara Deva Goswämé Mahäräj
End of side A, start of side B, 1 st, 2 nd.9.81
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : ... perhaps in 1921. Another gentleman one day, he gave lecture, I attended. He came back from Haridwar and Hrishikesa also, he was standing on the bench in the square addressing, these two men, and so many are talking, many men standing on the bench. Then they began to deliver lecture, and so many students out of curiosity they flocked there, one day. That man is full of that white leprosy, coming back from Haridwar and other tirtha. He told, in quest of whether the God is or not, whether the Lord is or not. With this idea I went to consult some sädhus there, a mile or two off, up there Haridwar I met one sädhu coming down from the hill. And I fell flat under his feet and then asked him, 'have you seen God? Can you see Him?' This was my question.
"Yes. I have seen. Yes. He is."
"Can I see?"
"Don't you see?" In this way he cried aloud. "Don't you see Him?" In such a tone he cried aloud, "Don't you see Him all around?"
A flash of light came within me. I thought your unity in the consciousness of the birds, trees, everything is within one common flow of ätmä, I found in my heart. Then I was a little calmed. And he went on in his own way.
One gentleman gave a lecture right there. So many lecturers there of different types. Another gentleman, perhaps a Brahmo*, he's delivering lectures ridiculing sanätana dharma, the sandhya vandana all these things. I used to perform sandhya, coming from a brähmaëa family, used to do that. Then he referred to some visnu padi - Visnu Padi is a place there in Haridwar, Visnu Padi. And the founders of the sandhyamantra they say ganga tui visnu padi. They say that the Ganga is coming from Visnu Pada padma, from the sweat of the foot of Viñëu the Ganga is coming. But they do not know that there is Viñëu Padi, there is a place near Haridwar and the Ganga flowing nearby. And only for that Ganga's name is Viñëu Padi. But not from there, not she had her birth in Viñëu Pada padma. But it is for that place and coming by that Viñëu Padi place so its name is Viñëu Padi and she does not come from the sweat of the holy feet of Viñëu. This is all ornamental. This is lie. It is false." In this way he gave.
But I put a question to him, ha, ha, ha. The Ganga, the Bhagarathi is passing, and it is known as Hoogly River. From Hoogly, the lower portion is said to be, the river is known to be Hoogly. So should we mean that that is the, that should be the name of that. Because Hoogly is there so we say Ganga to be Hoogly River. But should we think that Ganges has no other origin far above? Then what is the matter, it is passing through Visnu padi so Ganga will be… Some people may think that Visnu padi. From Visnu padi the name of Ganga may not come, but from Ganga the place may be Visnu Padi. That also may be.
That gentleman did not say anything. He did not reply.
There is a place on the side on the banks of the Ganges whose name is Visnu Padi. And how can state that he's coming up from Visnu pada padma, that cannot be. The Hoogly name, from Hoogly downwards it is Hoogly. But on the upward Ganges is that also Hoogly?
Hare Kåñëa. So, I retire now. Gaura Hari bol! You are making tape? No?
Devotees : Yes. We are told often that the Guru and çiñya , if the çiñya is not successful in this life we are told that the Guru will return by taking another janma, another birth. So I want to ask does he personally take another janma or does Paramätmä rupa manifest?
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Anyhow the relation will continue, continue. And whether that particular soul who was delegated in the previous life he will come, he will be sent or not, no guarantee. But anyhow the disciple will have consciousness of that. He will see that my former Gurudeva may be in different forms. Not unknown. He will see that I am known, not unknown, to my master. He was my Guru. He knows everything. But external form may not be similar, similar.
Suppose a disciple may come in a particular country, in a particular sect. The Guru may also come in a particular country, in a particular sect, particular education. That may be, may be. The çiñya will come, the disciple will come to exactly the same position? That may not be. And the Guru will also come in that fixed position? That also may not be. But they will be able to recognise one another, each other. My Guru, he knows about my previous life. And the disciple will also feel that he knows everything about me. I am beginning in the same place.
So, with such broadness we are to look at our Guru Mahäräj, so in this way it is säkñäd-dharitvena, not only the person but plus something else, guru-tattva means. And that manipulation is by the Lord or His svarüpa-çakti. But anyhow no disturbance will be about the past.
Devotee : They say, I don't know if it is correct, but they say that the Guru, because his disciple was not successful he may not return to the dhäma, to the back to Godhead. But he may remain in this, in the brahmäëòa . That question…
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Eh?
Devotee : They say that the Guru may not return back to Kåñëa. He may not go. He may remain in this world. In that way…
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : If that is the case then no Guru can return to Kåñëa anytime because the continuation of the disciple will remain.
Devotee : Yes.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : So he will have no leisure anytime in his life. But it may not be so.
Devotee : No. That is why I was …
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : He may be, sometimes he may be deputed himself, or others also may be deputed in that case.
Devotee : Right.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : But the inner instruction and inner feeling will be such, the paraphernalia, that they will have no trouble for that. Officer may change but the function will go on smoothly.
……..
Devotee : You were saying he doesn't necessarily, the Guru doesn't necessarily remain. The Guru may return back.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : The Guru may return. The näma-guru, mantra-guru, sannyäsa-guru , they're all Gurus, but we must see something common in them, and so the expression, so the statement about the ontological aspect of Guru, the säkñäd-dharitvena samasta-çästrair, "I Myself."
äcäryaà mäà vijänéyän , [nävamanyeta karhicit
na martya-buddhyäsüyeta , sarva-deva-mayo guruù]
["One should know the Äcärya as Myself and never disrespect him in any way. One should not envy him, thinking him an ordinary man, for he is the representative of all the demigods."] [ Çrémad-Bhägavatam, 11.17.27]
"You should consider, you should look for there Myself. I am there. I am your Guru. In My different types of çakti or general recruitment in any way, I am Guru. It is My function to take you up. In different place but still I am there. I am there. I am there in My mädhurya-rasa çakti or sakhya-rasa çakti, vätsalya-rasa çakti, or däsya-rasa çakti, in a general way also."
Sometimes one may be recruited by Rämänuja sampradäya , then again converted into Kåñëa sampradäya, Gauòéya sampradäya. It is also possible. So internal link we are to…
Devotee : If they say that 'he will come back, come back,' that is a mundane conception, a wrong conception.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : The main thread, the main thread. Not always, almost, to the beginners it is safe to say that he will come back. But ultimately we see that even that one may be transferred into another section, another section. This zigzag way also may reach according to the detection of his inner, unfoldment of his inner necessity the departmental change may occur.
Or he will see the change in his own Guru. In the first sight he saw his Guru of one type. Then again in progress he will see the same Guru, he may be another thing found in their new thing, new thing. 'I could not detect so much depth in my Guru in the beginning. I saw him such and such, but now I find that he's something more and more.' In this way unfoldment, here unfoldment and there also unfoldment.
So äveça , çaktyäveça, Guru is something like çaktyäveça. But is it chance coincidence all these çaktyäveça? And that is permanent çaktyäveça, always, the çaktyäveça. According to the necessity of the situation and by the will, by the dispensation of the Lord, they will be connected but they won't feel any disturbance, due to his presence within.
Who will quench the evolved progress of ones heart, unfoldment of heart, a new demand, new thirst, and that will be quenched by whom? His Guru, his Guru, and he will have not any scrupulousness or anything else. The internal thirst is being satisfied. And there is my Gurudeva. The unfoldment, gradual unfoldment, and the attendance of the same from the upper side, there is Guru, there is Guru. Guru, guide, with my progress, guidance of different type will be necessary for me. New guidance, new guidance, with the progress I shall be taken into different planes of the new types of guidance, new life will be acquired, in this way.
But the main thread, the raso vai sah, the pure rasa, pure ecstasy, and that will, hådaye näbhya nujïäto , my inner heart will approve. Heart will approve, cannot but approve, cannot but approve. 'Yes. I want this. I want this. This is my fate, this is my fortune,' in this way. Otherwise, if any soul, madhyama adhikäré, he's once appointed as Guru, and so many disciples, and he will come again and again, he can't enter into nitya-lélä anytime.
Devotee : No.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : That cannot be. But anyhow, who will be connected, here, both parties will be satisfied, because of His presence. So He says äcäryaà mäà vijänéyän . It is not meaningless. It has got sufficient purpose.
äcäryaà mäà vijänéyän , nävamanyeta karhicit
na martya-buddhyäsüyeta , sarva-deva-mayo guruù
Don't go to limit the äcärya, don't limit äcärya. So He says äcäryaà mäà vijänéyän, nävamanyeta. "You have come up, so the äcärya whom you first meet perhaps you have surpassed him, first meeting of the äcärya. Nävamanyeta, don't see less in him, don't see him of lower position, nävamanyeta. I was there, I was there. In a primary teacher I was there. As a schoolteacher there also I am, college teacher, so nävamanyeta, don't see outside. I am your guide, in different forms I am your guide.
So,
äcäryaà mäà vijänéyän , nävamanyeta karhicit
na martya-buddhyäsüyeta , sarva-deva-mayo guruù
He has got special characteristic than ordinary general Vaiñëava, äcärya. For you, I am there."
Hare Kåñëa. " Mayänukülena nabhasvateritaà , backing so many äcärya, so many äcärya, I am at the back, working through them, mayänukülena nabhasvateritaà , pumän bhaväbdhià na taret sa ätmahä. "
[nå-deham ädyaà sulabhaà sudurllabhaà, plavaà sukalpaà guru-karëadhäram
mayänukülena nabhasvateritaà, pumän bhaväbdhià na taret sa ätmahä ]
[ Çrémad-Bhägavatam, 11.20.17]
"They're like helmsmen in different boats, äcärya. And I am the favourable wind helping so many boats to make progress."
Devotee : Don't limit the äcärya , don't limit.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : "Don't limit. Try to see him in the same level with Me."
Devotee : In the Bhägavatam our Çréla Prabhupäda [A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swämé Mahäräj], he wrote something in the purport in connection with the story of Dhruva Mahäräj, the third canto. He said Dhruva Mahäräj was very, very strong and he could take his mother back to the dhäma, back to Godhead. So our Prabhupäda wrote, "If I have one strong disciple then he can take me back to Godhead." So we find this statement very mysterious.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Ha, ha, ha, ha. Dhruva's Guru was his mother, his mother was vartma-pradarçaka , first guide, just as Cintamani in the case of Bilvamangal, so through her also that Kåñëa, that äcärya, vartma-pradarçaka. Then Dhruva came out pressed by his mother, first start from his mother. Next from Närada, then by dint of his bhajana when he attained the place, then again he took his vartma-pradarçaka guru, mother. She was still left perhaps. So vartma-pradarçaka guru, a very rare case we find that also, the vartma-pradarçaka, who gives the first start, to the kaniñöha-adhikäré bhakta, gave first start. But we are to consider the past life of Dhruva and also his mother. Dhruva in his past life he had some more progress and now in this life his mother, who was arranged by the Lord to give some starting, and then he adopted the path of bhajana. Nirmitam [?], his mother was [nimitam?], starting. But both of them have previous life and previous progress in the proper direction.
Primary teachers, first they may deal with an extraordinary scholar in the beginning. Then he passes, and again have, the other day I told to someone that in Burke** we read that the grandson was so much qualified that he was conferred the title of lord. And to make him lord his grandfather was also to be made lord. So lord, the title comes from up to down, but here, from down to up. The grandfather, he was given recognition of lord and then father and grandfather. But first the grandson, he got the title of lord by the dint of his capacity. There was a case we read from Burke conciliation, that American war. Hare Kåñëa. Impeachment of [one Hastings?] These are the American taxation conciliation, in the Parliament, the Burke was a very good player, advocate, or barrister, something like that, he pleaded. And in B.A. class we had to read those things.
So it may be because by previous arrangements the less qualified he may give push to a more qualified person. I am young. And then, in return he also may help him, help him. So Guru, he, he means that God consciousness in different sections and different places. From different directions one may receive help.
Devotee : Cakhu-dän dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei,
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Whenever any difference we are to see the common thread, sometimes. Absolute will have the better consideration than the relative position. Both Absolute and relative consideration, and without that, then no progress is possible. Absolute and relative, both considerations must go side by side, side by side. Absolute has the primary position, and relative temporary, suiting to the purpose of time, space, and person. So in the longest journey of my life, and my greatest interest, we are already given, the keeps, the connection of the Absolute, always, always. So there is unity. Even in a Guru when he says, this ordinary Guru. So the çästra also has kept up that link.
parokña-vädo vedo 'yaà , [bälänäm anuçäsanam
karma-mokñäya karmäëi , vidhatte hy agadaà yathä]
["Childish and foolish people are attached to materialistic, fruitive activities, although the actual goal of life is to become free from such activities. Therefore, the Vedic injunctions indirectly lead one to the path of ultimate liberation by first prescribing fruitive religious activities, just as a father promises his child candy so that the child will take his medicine."] [Çrémad-Bhägavatam, 11.3.44]
It is unable, if I say that don't eat fish, meat, etc, he won't come into the fold. But our policy is that they must come, so give some laxity. In the çästra and Guru also there, similar Guru, similar çästra is there, but hoping that they will take the way of that progress. So, so much generous, the çästra, the çästra is in the lowest, to the lowest generation, lowest section, and the Guru also similar is there, similar Guru and similar çästra, similar sädhu. In this way the çästra extended to the lowest plane to take up in the gradual process. The çästra car, he has got in his mind that in this gradual process some provision they must be given, otherwise they will fly away. So they should be taken up in the gradual process. The universal mind is there. And that sort of consciousness is in the mind of the Åñi that has prepared that çästra, and Guru, laksana, all these things.
loke vyaväyämiña-madya-sevänityastu jantor-nahi tatra codanä
vyavasthitis-teñu viväha-yajïa-surägrahairasu nivåttiriñöhä
["Everyone is naturally inclined to have sex, eat meat and drink wine. There is no need for the scripture to encourage these things. The scriptures do, however, give concessions for people who are determined to do these things. The scriptures therefore grant a license to enjoy sex by allowing sexual intercourse with one's lawfully wedded wife at the proper time of the month. They grant a license to eat meat to those who perform a certain kind of sacrifice, and a license to drink wine to those who perform the Sautramaëi sacrifice. The purpose of granting these licences for sense gratification is only to restrict these activities and to encourage people to give them up altogether. The real intention of the Vedic injunctions regarding sex, meat-eating, and wine-drinking is to make a person abstain from these activities."] [Çrémad-Bhägavatam, 11.5.11]
You take wine, but under some condition, if you offer it to the particular Devata and then take. You take meat and fish but don't take all sorts of meat, all sorts of flesh. And try to keep up without animal food on such day, and such day, such day. And by instalments they're taken up. Viväha vyavaya, don't go freely to the women but you marry a wife and try to keep your enjoyment there only, in this way only restricting, then, when you'll be a little grown up. No more, my son, enough has been done.
panca so dhan bhanam bajet palit latesu bhutanam nemitestu maha phalar?
The real progress awaiting you from such position and its nature will be such and such. When grown up little then that sort of duty will be attached to him. The çästra, and sädhu, that is Guru, is going to the extremity of the sinful area. Otherwise they will have no chance of coming up. But the disciples of a sädhaka , in general they'll take up from their own plane and to go up. And there also they will find such Guru, such çästra , all [and may remain?] Just as we see our jurisdiction of the light, very much intense we can't see, and very meagre we can't see. Sound also, very intensified sound we can't hear, and very less we can't hear. So we work in the relative position. But we are told to stick to the Absolute thread contained within, to understand the whole thing.
Äcäryaà mäà vijänéyän , nävamanyeta karhicit. Don't undermine. Na martya-buddhyäsüyeta. Though you see some mundane characteristic there, sleeping, eating, all these things, but don't undermine, undermine. Then you'll be loser. Just as in the Ganges water, in the Çré Mürti, no stone, no wood, no watery substance, but it can purify, Ganges water can purify what, the water aspect? No. Another aspect, and that analysed ultimately we see the order of the Lord, His order that it will be referred. The will, the purifying power, comes from His will, His will backing. So Absolute backing we shall try to find everywhere, and also the relative position we can't sacrifice, then we'll have to go to nirviçeña. He, which is all His system, paraphernalia of different nature, characteristic, we want to have both, çakti and çaktimän . In no case we can sacrifice çakti, either of them.
When [Raghunätha] däsa Goswämé says that 'I do not want Kåñëa if Rädhäräëé is not there. I want rather Rädhäräëé.' Then who is Rädhäräëé? Who is Rädhäräëé? Full of Kåñëa. Ha, ha. 'So I want Rädhäräëé?' So Kåñëa is there, and in different relative positions He becomes, to the particular persons, sweet, sweeter, sweetest, in this way the relation is there.
Kåñëa. Kåñëa. Kåñëa. Gaura Hari. Gaura Hari. Gaura Hari. Gaura Hari. Nitäi. Nitäi. Nitäi.
Devotee : We are feeling our Guru Mahäräj [Çréla A.C. Bhaktivedänta Swämé Mahäräj] is present within you.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : It maybe for you. Hare Kåñëa.
Devotee : There are five principals for devotion, for bhakti, and one of the principals is residing in the dhäma.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Yes.
Devotee : Is that for general devotees or just fortunate devotees?
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : General means madhyama-adhikär é , who can discriminate.
Devotee : Yes.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Kaniñöha adhikäré cannot discriminate the various positions. Hare Kåñëa…………………………………………..? Nitäi. Nitäi. Nitäi. Nitäi.
Religion is proper adjustment. Our Guru Mahäräj [Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Saraswaté Öhäkura] used to tell now and then, 'proper adjustment.' Proper adjustment, sambandha-jïäna, then the function will come accordingly, and the necessity, the destination, will be fixed from that, sambandha-jïäna. Sanätana Goswämé is the äcärya of sambandha-jïäna. Who is who, who is who, who am I, where am I, what am I? All these things, why I am troubled, what's the real purpose of my life?
Nitäi Caitanya. Gaura Hari bol! Gaura Hari bol! Gaura Hari bol!
The adjustment with the Absolute and the relative, nothing can be sacrificed, adjustment of the Absolute and the relative. And one thing we must always keep in mind, that we can't investigate all these subtle, higher knowledge as a subject. But according to the degree of our, our çaraëägati, surrender, the truth will come down to make Himself known to me. That thing we must always remember in our mind. Otherwise there will be some imitation, imitative spirit will be created. It is not under the jurisdiction of intellectualism. That is rather dangerous. Intellectualism is dangerous. That will help us to think that as if we have got the thing. It will be negligence to the infinite characteristic, the infinite aspect of the Lord. Adhokñaja.
Sometimes I asked Prabhupäda [Bhaktisiddhänta Saraswaté Öhäkura], that Rüpa Goswämé, he closes Braja lélä in one way, and Sanätana Goswämé in another way. And both of them got their instruction from Mahäprabhu. Why this difference? Guru Mahäräj told, 'Why it has been called adhokñaja ?' Ha, ha, ha. Adhokñaja cannot be harmonised within our intellect. Acintya bhedäbheda, acintya bhedäbheda, both may be true simultaneously, acintya.
Väsudeva-nandana, Nanda-nandana, the äcärya harmonised the two children and then one enters into another. Baladeva is having rasa. The äcärya explained the Baladeva made rasa of Kåñëa in His heart. Externally He's seen to participate in the pastimes of the gopés direct, but internally He's enjoying, He's making Kåñëa to enjoy that rasa in His heart. He's not the enjoyer Himself. These are the harmonising instruction of the upper house. This is the way we shall harmonise.
Hare Kåñëa. Gaura Hari bol! Gaura Hari bol! Gaura Hari bol!
Devotee : Mahäräj, the different animals, and trees, insects, in the dhäma…
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : They're wholesale cinmaya, they're not under bondage, but posing, difference of posing. Particular type of service and they have got fullest satisfaction in that plane of their service. They imbibe the best internal feeling thereby and do not want any other. In their relative position they are fully satisfied there, fullest aspect. Just as in other rasas, säkhya, vätsalya,
yah ye rasa haya sarvotam?
He thinks that what I get, this is the best. I do not like to interfere in another. What I draw, this is the best position I have got. yah ye, vätsalya, säkhya, etc., çanta-rasa is also like…………………? the trees are there, the baluka, the sands are there, so many animals and beasts are there, the birds are there, trees, creepers, but still the qualitative difference. Uddhava, Uddhava, Dwärakä, the highest, he wants to aspire after the birth of a creeper in Våndävana. Qualitative difference in çanta-rasa, Dwärakä also there is çanta-rasa, but the säkhya-rasa, highest type of säkhya-rasa in Dwärakä aspires after the çanta-rasa service in Våndävana, when he has got a little peeping into the atmosphere of the type of quality of service in rendering in Våndävana. He's the highest in a particular plane but he has got this absolute consideration. Though relative position, he's satisfied there, but absolute always supersedes, otherwise the unity, the connection of the whole, everything will be dislocated and disorganised. So absolute consideration is possible from every position. From their own position, they realise the supremacy of Vrindavan, though, is satisfied there .... that is also there ..... so the difficult thing relative and absolute, absolute has got the better hand, superior hand sarva dharman parityajya everywhere, absolute consideration. This guru siksha, guru all these things, Narottama Thakur had his guru Lokanath, but still he aspires after ‘When the day will come when Lokanath will take me by my hand and guide me to Rupa Goswami . He needs some engagement here in your camp you will surrender me to Rupa Goswami.’ The Absolute consideration underground.
Devotee: So the animals here in Navadwipa are liberated?
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Liberated? Yes, liberated. And one who can see that in his Navadwipa eye....
End of recording, 1st, 2nd September 1981
* * * * * * * *
* Founded in 1828 by Raja Ram Mohan Roy in Calcutta, the Brahmo Samaj is a religious movement. At its centre is the belief that there is one God, who is omni-present and omniscient. It initially evolved in India where it differed from existing practice as it did not believe in idol-worship or the caste system. The Brahmo religion is now practised in many parts of the world. (from www.chanda.freeserve.co.uk)
** Edmund Burke (1729 - 1797).