His Divine Grace Çréla Bhakti Rakñaka Çrédhara Deva Goswämé Mahäräj
start of side B, 20.9.81
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : ... beside of Rädhäräëé that is the highest conception of Kåñëa. When one cannot come below from that plane, he will see only Hari Harä, nothing else more. Harä Kåñëa, Rädhä-Kåñëa. Rädhä-Kåñëa, completely, perfectly installed in madhurya rasa, madhurya rasa the, holding the highest position, of that darshan, it cannot come out. If he comes out, only for the interest of that party. It can come anywhere and everywhere but his interest is from the …there ... service of that quarter he may come. He’s there, he represents that plane. Then Harä means Rädhä who can even snatch the attention of Kåñëa. Hari Haräm, haram. Haram means to steal, to steal. One who can steal, the most expert in stealing, who can steal the mind of Kåñëa even, she’s Harä. The haram, the stealing, in it’s highest capacity is Rädhäräëé and Kåñëa who can attract most in the absolute sense, they’re both represented there. They can't deviate from that consciousness. They go on, Hare Rädhä-Kåñëa, Rädhä-Çyäma, cannot but think anything but that, that level, he can't come down from the interest of Rädhä-Kåñëa, he cannot allow himself to be out. Hare Kåñëa. That is the position of our highest aspiration.
Gaura Hari bol! Gaura Hari bol! Gaura Hari bol! Hare Kåñëa.
Devotee : Mahäräj, Hara can, you said according to adhikäré…
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Yes, that sort of meaning will awake in ones mind. It will be awakened. It is in the inner function and it will be discovered by sädhana . The cover will be removed and it will spontaneously come up from the core of our heart in the spiritual sense. It can't contain, can't but, it can't help in such a way the meaning will spring up from the fountain of our heart, won't be able to avoid. That is the root of the highest source of the meaning.
Gaura Hari bol! Gaura Hari bol! Nitäi.
At the same time I feel that I cannot express myself correctly, fully.
Devotee : Mahäräj, you were saying there would be, according to ones adhikära there would be different conceptions.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Yes.
Devotee : So is that conception also there for Rädhäräëé? Different conceptions of Rädhäräëé are also there?
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Yes, deeper. Lalitä Devé looks after the interest of Rädhäräëé, more than that of Kåñëa. Viçäkhä is almost neutral position. There are others who are more interested with Kåñëa's interest and the highest section is like that. And from different sections also different rasas, the conception of both always different, difference is always bhedäbheda , acintya, acintya bhedäbheda containing all through. No two things are one and the same congruent, bhedäbheda, and that is acintya. That should be, that should run all through, everywhere, distinctive, differentiated, always. Even Rädhäräëé in Våndävana, Rädhäräëé outside in Kurukñetra different, Kåñëa also, in Dvärakä , in Mathurä, all different mood, nature, but in comparative study the highest conception we are to enquire and understand.
tatastha, yajay rasa se hari sarvottama?
Everyone in his own position, he finds that this is the highest. 'I do not want more.' But sometimes when there is any clash then they come to realise under the painful necessity, they have to realise, 'No, he, his position is greater than that of mine,' but not always, temporarily, to admit. So the (taratama?) superior and inferior, in rasa, çanta , däsya, säkhya, vätsalya, mädhurya, but the general conception given of the çanta- rasa, 'that we hold the very happy position, the happiest position. I don't want another position.' The Yamunä, (Baluka?), the trees, the creepers, the birds, 'We are full in our,' they're all full in their own position, they conceive like that. That is the arrangement of Yoga-mäyä by the will of Baladeva and Kåñëa, for the interest of the lélä. But bhedäbheda always, that is the Absolute standpoint, acintya. Only must not be harmonised within our brain but some sort of remote idea we can have. Hare Kåñëa.
So whenever we shall venture to talk about those things, with very carefulness and respect we shall try to approach. And we must feel that we are going to deal with living thing, not with a dead body, that we are analysing in the laboratory, and being a subject there, object we are analysing, not with that spirit. But we are going to talk about our masters. We do not know whether I shall be taken in, in any time in future, but only because I have heard from a source, which I respect most sincerely, only I go to that. And what little taste I can derive I do, that is my wage, that is my wage.
ankutine apane chai
pasi cadi nahi ani api nahi chai
krsna nama cori nachai more kori pran nama?
Kaviräja Goswämé…………….?
'Make me dance like anything.' Now he stops dancing, 'my dancing inspiration, now I sit idle,’ the necessity of the environment, in the form of environment things come to us and excite and takes something from us, exact, exacting something.
Hare Kåñëa. Hare Kåñëa.
acintyäù khalu ye bhävä na täàs tarkeëa yojayet
[prakåtibhyaù paraà yacca tad-acintyasya lakñam]
["That which is inconceivable can never be understood through the logic and reason of the mind. The very symptom that something is inconceivable is that it is beyond logical comprehension."] [Skanda- Puräëa ] + [Mahäbharata, Bhiñma Parva, 5.22]
What is unthinkable, we are engaged to talk about that what is unthinkable, unknowable, unthinkable, we are engaged to talk about that thing, unthinkable.
mukam karoti väcälaà [panghum langhäyate girém
yat kåpä tam ahaà vande çré gurun déna-täranam ]
["I offer my respectful obeisances unto Mädhava, Who is the Personification of transcendental bliss. By His mercy, a blind man can see the stars in the sky, a lame man can cross mountains, and a dumb man can speak eloquent words of poetry."]
[Bhavärtha Dipikä, maìgala stotram, 1]
When he's not qualified to speak anything through his mouth but he is transformed into a, who speaks much…
Devotee : Talkative.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Talkative, he's transformed into talkative one. His internal inspiration made a dumb talkative, mukam karoti väcälaà. Panghum langhäyate girém, one who cannot walk, he jumps over the mountain, made to jump over the mountain. Yat kåpä tam, the central energy in form of grace can do anything and everything.
Mahäprabhu Himself says, "What I tell you Sanätana, I do not know what is that thing. Only this much I feel that something is passing through Me to you. And I'm also feeling simultaneously that you are very fortunate to be recipient of that flow Sanätana. Kåñëa is such."
Vyäso vetti na vetti vä . Whatever He wants to do, that is done. Çukadeva was the great exponent of Bhägavatam, but it is not found that he's in the highest position of kåñëa-lélä, what he's delivering through his mouth through tongue. So many high things have been transmitted through his tongue, but he may not have his stand in that plane. We don't find that Çukadeva has got his permanent position in Rädhä-Kåñëa lélä in mädhurya-rasa in a particular sakhé or so.
And also we find from Caitanya-Bhägavata when Mahäprabhu asked Çréväsa Paëòita, "What type of devotee you think about Advaita Prabhu, My Advaita, My Nara?"
Çréväsa Paëòita, "Like Prahläda and Çuka."
Mahäprabhu was excited, "Eh, what do you say? The Çuka and Prahläda, they're a child of the primary school, the student. You compare My Nara, My Advaita who has got connection with the high lélä of Mine, only compared to Çuka and Prahläda." But what Çukadeva has given to us through his mouth that is unfathomable. He's delivering akunta bheda sa? he's going on, things are coming through him, flowing in a natural way. What he has got delivered through his nectarine tongue that has no comparison in the world anywhere. But still he's considered in that way, from the general position of his previous consideration, Çukadeva.
yada more vikra visvartam?
After giving delivery to all these things he went away, along with the beggars, to nowhere. He did not care to meet Vyäsadeva, his Guru, father and Guru, and his Guru Närada, they're in the meeting, he did not care for that. He choose to be unseen. He came from unseen and entered into it again, untraceable, such solitary life, but there was his param guru, he did not care. Hare Kåñëa. So, he was selected as a machine, loudspeaker, something like that. Inspiration came only to help, that Bhägavata is above Vedänta, above jïäna. The jïänés, yogés, they formed the major portion of the audience, so Çukadeva was necessary.
suka maha manta ……………………..?
to them, to the audience at large, and it was put that Bhägavata is more than this non-differentiationist, the viçeñavada, Çukadeva was necessary. Çukadeva was necessary. That must come from him, then those fellows will have some regard. Otherwise they won't care, 'Oh, we know all these things, from Padma- Puräëa , Brahma-vaivarta- Puräëa , we have seen all those things. What more is there?' But when coloured by the brahma-jïäna of Çukadeva Goswämé it was delivered, with rapt attention they gave their hearing, ears, to Bhägavatam. So,
pariniñöhito 'pi nairguëye , uttamaù-çloka-lélayä
gåhéta-cetä räjarñe , äkhyänaà yad adhétavän,
[tad ahaà te 'bhidhäsyämi, mahä-pauruñiko bhavän
yasya çraddadhatäm äçu , syän mukunde matiù saté]
["O saintly King, I was certainly situated perfectly in transcendence, yet I was still attracted by the delineation of the pastimes of the Lord, who is described by enlightened verses." - "That very Çrémad-Bhägavatam I shall recite before you because you are the most sincere devotee of Lord Kåñëa. One who gives full attention and respect to hearing Çrémad-Bhägavatam achieves unflinching faith in the Supreme Lord, the giver of salvation."] [Çrémad-Bhägavatam, 2.1.9-10]
Gaura Hari bol! Nitäi Caitanya.
Devotee : Sütadeva Goswämé was also brahmavädé ?
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Süta? Not so much, he had not such position, a big position in the society, only his father he was entrusted by Vedavyäsa, Vyäsadeva, with the Puräëa. Puräëa section was given to his father. He read the Puräëas and he was expert in the explanation of the Puräëa, his father. But it is not found that he had any particular creed, he was included in any particular creed, that of brahma-yajïa or yoga or anything else, but Puräëa . But his special characteristic was as çrutidara , once heard, pressed, he could keep it in memory, (ugra srava?) Whatever he heard he did not forget that, that was his qualification. He attentively heard, kept the whole thing within him, and again he vomited the whole thing there.
Devotee : Mahäräj, in Caitanya lélä, who is Çukadeva Goswämé in Caitanya lélä?
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : The pärñadas have said Kaviräja Goswämé. But he's of another type.
Devotee : Ha, ha, ha.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Just as Arjuna, Rämänanda is combined of Arjuna and Viçäkhä sakhé. So Kaviräja Goswämé is Kasturi Maïjaré there and also Çukadeva's work. Çukadeva's speciality was the rasa and philosophy, ontology and poetry, of course, spiritual, combined. And in Kaviräja Goswämé we find those two, ontology, tattva-vicära, philosophy, as well as poetry, the alaìkära , the (cabwa?) rasa……. both…
caritämåta . In Caitanya-Bhägavatamrasa may be there of some order but no ontological aspect represented there about Caitanya. So ontology as well as rasa, that we find in Caitanya-caritämåta and Bhägavatam. Rüpa Goswämé also we find rasa and philosophy, (haicy?) and philosophy, ontology.
Nitäi. Nitäi. Nitäi. Nitäi. Nitäi.
Devotee : Mahäräj, in the different tikas, like Bäladeva Vidyäbhüñaëa and Viçvanätha Cakravarté, they're also representing a different…
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Yes, a little difference there. Bäladeva tending towards Mädhva School, more connection with the Mädhva School. Viçvanätha Cakravarté, he of course in the Gauòéya School. But Bhaktivinoda Öhäkura has detected some anomaly in Viçvanätha Cakravarté when he praised much the mäyävädä äcärya author of AdvaitaSiddhi, that Madhusudhana Saraswaté. Outwardly he accepted Bhägavata but in the conclusion the basis of Bhägavata he wanted to provemäyävädä, so he's more dangerous and the greater enemy, but Cakravarté Öhäkura has mentioned his name with some respect. But Bhaktivinoda Öhäkura could not tolerate that ultimately he's a mäyävädé, 'jéva and Bhagavän are one and the same.' And outwardly he's enchanting so many devotees of lower order towards him, he's more dangerous, vedäçraya nästikya-väda ,
veda nä mäniyä bauddha haya' ta nästika
vedäçraya nästikya-väda bauddhake adhika
["The Buddhists do not recognise the authority of the Vedas; therefore they are considered agnostics. However, those who have taken shelter of the Vedic scriptures yet preach agnosticism in accordance with the Mäyäväda philosophy are certainly more dangerous than the Buddhists."] [Caitanya-caritämåta, Madhya-lélä, 6.168]
So he should not be given any recognition, but Cakravarté Öhäkura has given some respect to that Madhusudhana pada, Saraswaté pada. So Viçvanätha Cakravarté Öhäkura he did not, perhaps he has left it for his predecessor and successors, left that work for Bhaktivinoda Öhäkura to detect that fine point. Bhaktivinoda Öhäkura is very keen in his analysis of the previous exponents. Tulasédäs, Méräbäé, they're rejected from çuddha-bhakti school, but generally, people think that they're devotees of the higher order, but it is not accepted by Bhaktivinoda Öhäkura, Prabhupäda. They want to cross, to ignore the whole svarüpa-çakti department and wants to connect themselves direct with Kåñëa, which is impossible, that is concoction, cannot but be concoction, ignoring the whole eternally existing svarüpa-çakti system, the whole system ignored, and they want to have direct connection with Kåñëa which is impossible. So they're in mäyä, misunderstanding, misconception there. That is maybe, sattya-guëa not nirguëa. nirguëa, who has got real çuddha-bhakti connection, they must be awake to the real fact that the hierarchy is there, the eternal servitors of different rasas there, and there is the hierarchy, and he must have some position, location there, anywhere in that system, a system, but the whole system ignored by these fellows. Then this cannot but be concoction, they're deceived, all these feelings, dancing, etc., they're all baseless, baseless, ignorance, the non-recognition of the svarüpa-çakti, and so it is fictitious, cannot but be fictitious.
Devotee : Mahäräj, where is Viçvanätha Cakravarté giving recognition to this Madhusudhan, which places?
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : I don't remember, some Bhägavata tika or his tika maybe. I found in Bhaktivinoda Öhäkura, in Jaiva Dharma, Caitanya-Çikñämåta, or somewhere perhaps it is mentioned by Bhaktivinoda. Madhusudhan pad, in his Gita tika, in commentary in Gita and Bhägavatam, somewhere he has mentioned.
Devotee : Some people in Våndävana, they were saying that this Madhusudhan Saraswaté was the same person as Viçvanätha Cakravarté.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Ha, ha, no.
Devotee : They were saying he's exactly the same.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Never. Their works are there, and who can eye, who can read, who can understand the meaning, it cannot come from them. An ordinary imitationist bäbäjé who are not concerned with the real thing but a process of imitation only.
Devotee : General people are mad for Méräbäé and…
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : There was one Rämakrishna Bäbäjé who was considered by all the vrajaväsés in general that he's siddha-mahätmä, but only Prabhupäda [Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Saraswaté Öhäkura] discarded him. Then, he had one disciple - I met both, Rämakrishna Bäbäjé also, and when I went to (Kaliban Kaira?), the place of Lokanätha Goswämé's bhajan stal. Sakhé Bäbhu gave money and I constructed the bhajan-kutir for which one bäbäjé came to our Prabhupäda in Rädhä-kuëòa, 'that the bhajan-kutir of Lokanätha Goswämé Prabhu is ruined, and please reconstruct the same,' and Prabhupäda gave him hope, but Prabhupäda departed in the meantime. Sakhé Bäbhu reminded me that when the man in charge of bhajan-kutir of Lokanätha Goswämé, (Sankolivan?) came to Prabhupäda, Prabhupäda gave consent to rebuild it. "If you do," he asked me, "I shall give you the money." I consented, I went there, and he constructed the building, and put also a marble, in the name of Chaitanya Saraswat Maöh, and mentioning the name of Sakhé Bäbhu who supplied the money. That place at that time was under some direct disciple of Rämakrishna Bäbäjé, Rädhä-rämana.
Devotee : Bangladesh, this place is in Bangladesh?
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Yes, (Nananshing?) His birthplace was (Nananshing?) He perhaps BSC, passed or failed I do not remember, perhaps he could not pass BSC examination, but anyhow he was a good scholar, and he had got variegated capacity. He could capture men by talking, and had many qualifications. That gentleman, that Rameshdäs Bäbäjé, he was in (Kaira?), in that bhajan-sthali when I constructed, he constructed the Maöh. Then they're generally apathetic, we are red clad,
raktavastra "vaiñëavera parite na yuyäya
[Red cloth is unfit for a (topmost paramahaàsa) Vaiñëava to wear.]
[ Caitanya-caritämåta , Antya-lélä, 13.61]
So we are red clad. They were reluctant to accept us amongst them. And we also did not care for them as the imitationist. Anyhow, the reconstruction of the room, that bhajan-kutir should be done, we are going on. Then I told him that we, one day, that we take this red cloth, the sannyäsé varëäçrama and to prove that bäbäjé they're more than that. That first become sannyäsé and then you'll maybe be promoted to the position of bäbäjé. He was highly satisfied. The Prabhupäda, our Guru Mahäräj filling the gap. "Don't, from any position, don't venture to accept the position of a bäbäjé. It is the position of the guru of the fourth varëa, the sannyäséns. So bäbäjé we consider to be the position of the guru of the sannyäséns. He was highly pleased.
Devotee : Ha, ha, ha, ha.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : And at the same time I told him, but we do not consider the present imitationist, that they're holding the proper position, they're false, hypocrites.
Devotees : Ha, ha, ha, ha.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Then he was infuriated. Then he told me, "You are an atheist." So-called atheist we are as previously bäbäjé's position of the present Våndävana area. Then, I came out, finishing the work. Then I heard from Kåñëadäsa Bäbäjé, he was there in Nandagram, that that gentleman, one, the (bani?) the sweeper, a sweeper's girl of very young age used to come here to sweep, all these things, and this bäbäjé he used to help her with some cloth and this and that. And outwardly he showed himself that he's a girl, he's a father and a daughter, in that way outwardly he… anyhow that was the…
Devotee : Act.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Act, his propaganda, his propaganda was that that he's the father and that small girl is his daughter. And she comes and sweeps the place of Goswämé Mahäräj, Lokanätha Goswämé's place, so I beg from some (shet?) and other man, cloth to her, or this to her, this thing. At last that gentleman was caught red-handed there with that girl, then he was forced to leave the place. Ha, ha.
But that gentleman he could not tolerate that 'we are sannyäsé, bäbäjé's are our Guru, higher rank, but at the same time we do not consider you to be worthy of that position.' He was very much infuriated. Then he left the place and went straight to Mathurä, and he was an educated man, he began coaching students, a private tutor, he took the vocation of a private tutor, gave up begging as bäbäjé. He was in such a position.
And I am told that at that time he met Keçava Mahäräj. He met Keçava Mahäräj and the same question arose and Keçava Mahäräj told him, "Whether, you complain that we give this sacred thread to anyone and everyone." That was their complain, that anyone and everyone will come and Gauòéya Maöh will confer sacred thread on them and red cloth. Then Keçava Mahäräj put a question to him, "Whether sacred thread is superior or the kaupéna is superior?" Whoever comes to them they give kaupéna and makes him bäbäjé. So Keçava Mahäräj put this question, "We are lavishly giving the sacred thread to anyone and everyone, we admit that. And you give kaupéna to anyone and everyone without much consideration. Then what is the superior?" Then he cannot but say that kaupéna is superior than sacred thread, he's compelled to say that. Then we give sacred thread, that is of inferior quality to anyone and everyone lavishly and you give that higher symptom, that kaupéna, to anyone and everyone. Then who does greater wrong to the society?" He could not say anything.
Devotee : Trapped, he was trapped.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : The kaupéna , we consider kaupéna to be the higher. What Mahäprabhu gave to Sanätana Goswämé, that is the highest thing, anyone should venture to take that garb. But first become brähmaëa, get the, acquire the qualification of a brähmaëa, that you come really to give your importance to the cetana, to the consciousness, then in the higher, more high position you will get exclusive remembrance of Rädhä-Govinda. That is the highest thing. The kaupéna is only for that form of life. And for ordinary, the spirit is above matter. First accustom yourself to think like that, "the spirit importance is always above that of matter." Come to this stage, consolidate your position there, and from that position you try to go up in the highest position of spiritual conception. Without omitting this, then you'll be imitationist, the material things you will mistake as spiritual. That means to imitate. That is the highest position of the spiritual, not material. And you are smearing mud on the body and saying it is nectar. That we can't admit. This is wholesale false, forgery. So,
brähmaëänäà sahasrebhyaù satra-yäjé viçiñyate
satra-yäji-sahasrebhyaù sarvva-vedänta-päragaù
sarvva-vedänta-vit-koö yä viñëubhakto viçiñyate
vaiñëavänäà sahasrebhyaù ekäntyeko viçiñyate
["Among many thousands of brähmaëas, a yajïikabrähmaëa is best. Among thousands of yajïikabrähmaëas, one who fully knows Vedänta is best. Among millions of knowers of Vedänta, one who is a devotee of Viñëu is best. And among thousands of devotees of Viñëu, one who is an unalloyed Vaiñëava is best."]
[Hari-Bhakti-Viläsa, 10.117] + [Bhakti-Sandarbha, 117]
The steps we are to cross, consciously, these are the steps on the way. And from here, and you are dreaming of that thing and thinking that you are siddha-mahätmä. We hate it. You are blaspheming, you are all blasphemy to Mahäprabhu and His sampradäya, (kalankara?)
Gaura Hari bol! Gaura Hari bol! Gaura Hari bol! Gaura Hari bol!
Devotee : I was feeling, I was staying in Våndävana and it was like desert, because there was no sat- saìga , in Våndävana I could find no sat-saìga.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Our Prabhupäda told once, "That I came to Våndävana," in this way he pushed his forehead, "I came to Våndävana, such a great place. My fate, I could not see one Vaiñëava here, I could not find a single Vaiñëava here. It is my misfortune." In this way he stroked his forehead.
Yesterday the bus must have come to Mäyäpur, Saturday bus trip. I thought some may come here from there. Calcutta/ Mäyäpur bus trip, weekly bus trip must have come, and this morning I expected anyone may come here, but none come.
Hare Kåñëa. Gaura Hari bol! Gaura Hari bol! Gaura Hari bol!
End of recording, 20.9.81.
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