His Divine Grace Çréla Bhakti Rakñaka Çrédhara Deva Goswämé Mahäräj
End of side A, start of side B, 4/5-3-81.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : ... the necessity to maintain the dynamic character of the Goloka, many things are to be played there. Even killing has got no value of killing. In a portrait you are taking a picture of a murderer but not the actual murderer is there. Similarly, in Goloka, whatever is being shown or whatever occurs there, that is not filthy. That is tasteful, that is wholesome. Because the very basis is not of exploitation, it is all of dedication. The competition is there but the competition in dedication that is better, that is better, that is the best competition. So, similarly, everything is present there, the basis is such that everything is well and good and wholesome, because the fundamental plane is that of dedication, not of exploitation, not of selfish play. Do you follow?
Devotee : Yes.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : You are to understand that, the difference between exploitation and dedication, exploiting land and dedicating land.
[Harjid Mohamed Marsin?] we are told, he stealthily threw out money to the poor. There was one, in Hoogly there was a Mohamedan chief and he was very benevolent and he helped many poor men. And there were also persons who were poor but do not, they feel hesitation to come to beg. And Harjid Mohamed he arranged, I read in my infant book that Harjid Mohamed Marsin, he, at night he was out with some money and those that feel shame to beg, he threw some money into his house, ha, ha, ha, stealthily.
So, there is also, stealing, but that thieving is not, that is admissible. So stealing also admissible. So in the land of dedication everything is admissible, everything is good. And the land of exploitation, everything is bad, the good things are also bad.
The German philosopher Kant says, "No deed can be perfectly good, only" according to him, "good will. Only without good will in this world nothing is to be found as good, only good will." But we also, we say even good will is also bad in this plane of exploitation. Good will, what standard of goodness we shall acquire? The standard is vitiated so we will also create some bad wave in the world, the land of exploitation. Whatever I shall do that will bring some bad thing in its retinue, cannot but be. I shall attend the bed of a patient, the medicine coming from so many creatures, creepers, or so many animals they are killed and this way. And some diet I am administering, the diet means that is killing so many jéva, either in the form of crops, or a creeper, or anything like. So no action can be absolutely good in this plane, in this land of exploitation.
karma dosa bada iti he?
Every action is considered to be wrong, or non-beneficial, bad, fetching bad effect, every movement here.
karma dosa bada iti ke?
Devotee : Now, there's one çloka in the Bhägavat…
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : But is it clear?
Devotees : Yes. Yes. Yes…there it says:
mahat-tattväd vikurväëäd , bhagavad-vérya-sambhavät
kriyä-çaktir ahaìkäras , tri-vidhaù samapadyata
[vaikärikas taijasaç ca, tämasaç ca yato bhavaù
manasaç cendriyäëäà ca , bhütänäà mahatäm api]
[The material ego springs up from the mahat-tattva, which evolved from the Lord's own energy. The material ego is endowed predominantly with active power of three kinds - good, passionate and ignorant. It is from these three types of material ego that the mind, the senses of perception, the organs of action, and the gross elements evolve.]
[Çrémad-Bhägavatam, 3.26.23-24]
This is Kapiladev, Kapila Muni.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : In what canto?
Devotees : Third canto. So, Prabhupäda was explaining that in the beginning there is clear consciousness, pure Kåñëa consciousness, and then the first contamination sprang up, is coming from false ego, ahaìkäras. And he says that we see also in actuality, in actual life that someone is acting in Kåñëa consciousness and then suddenly their behaviour changes.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Again, repeat it.
Devotee :
mahat-tattväd vikurväëäd , bhagavad-vérya-sambhavät
kriyä-çaktir ahaìkäras , tri-vidhaù samapadyata
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : What does Swämé Mahäräj say?
Devotee : He said that in the beginning there is clear consciousness…
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Clear consciousness.
Devotee : …pure Kåñëa consciousness…
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Pure Kåñëa consciousness.
Devotee : Then…
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : How Kåñëa consciousness deviates into mäyä consciousness…
Devotee : Yes.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Mahat-tattväd, what is the first word?
Devotee : Mahat-tattväd vikurväëäd.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : The first development of prakåti in the negative side is known as Mahat-tattva . Prakåti developed in the negative side first, that means its name is Mahat-tattva . Then mahat-tattväd vikurväëäd, when there is movement, first negative possession, extension towards negative world, and then vikurväëäd means there is movement, clear, mahat-tattväd vikurväëäd. Then?
Devotee : Bhagavad-vérya.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Bhagavad-vérya-sambhavät. Mayädhyakñeëa prakåtiù, süyate sa-caräcaram, and aham béja-pradaù pitä , in Bhagavad-gétä.
[mayädhyakñeëa prakåtiù, süyate sa-caräcaram
hetunänena kaunteya , jagad viparivartate]
["O Kaunteya, My deluding potency, under My direction gives birth to this universe of moving and stationary beings. And for this reason, that is, since only a created object is subject to destruction, the universe is created again and again."] [ Bhagavad-gétä , 9.10]
[sarva-yoniñu kaunteya, mürtayaù sambhavanti yäù
täsäà brahma mahad yonir , aham béja-pradaù pitä]
["O Kaunteya, Brahman personified as mother nature is the progenitress of all the various bodies born within all species of life, headed by demigods and humans - and I (as the causal consciousness) am the seed-giving father."] [Bhagavad-gétä , 14.4]
"Prakåti, I throw My semen, as if, in prakåti, and then the movements and Mahat-tattva and then all these developments in the side, in the prakåti."
So mahat-tattväd vikurväëäd, this negative movement, bhagavad-vérya-sambhavät, and the cause there is bhagavad-vérya, His potency, the potency of the Lord, sambhavät. Then what is the…
Devotee : Kriyä-çaktir ahaìkäras.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Kriyä-çaktir ahaìkäras, then this material subjective characteristic is born of that. Material individual tendency to work in this land of exploitation is gradually born from such condition, passing through it. Bhagavad-vérya-sambhavät, prakåtiù, negative first stage Maha-tattva and from Maha-tattva then this negative activity, that ahaìkära, and then it takes the characteristic of this material ego, that is selfish ego, individual ego. And they want to work here in different stages of Bhür-, Bhuvar-, Svar-, Mahar-, Janar-, Tapar-, Satya-loka. The ahaìkära of jéva soul is created, the ahaìkära of jéva soul, of the baddha jéva, created in this way. That is described how the origin of this ego of exploitation, that process is described there. He is there, bhagavad-vérya-sambhavät. Mayädhyakñeëa prakåtiù, süyate sa-caräcaram, and aham béja-pradaù pitä , in Bhagavad-gétä, aham béja-pradaù pitä. So from there the insinuation comes then prakåti is disturbed, the balance disturbed, equilibrium disturbed, and then in gradual process it takes up the shape of this material ego, material subjective existence that 'I want to be master of the nature. I want to possess these things, those things. I want to enjoy.' The ego, the master, ahaìkära, that is born gradually from that. Equilibrium stage it comes to take in different individual shape of ahaìkära. That is what is meant here.
Devotee : In the Vedas there is a statement, eko baho syam…
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Yes. eko ham baho syam aham.
Devotee : So, it is saying eko, Kåñëa is one and He expands Himself into many. So materially speaking that would seem to indicate some point of generation.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : In Goloka, Vaikuëöha, His oneness means, just as raja, raja means that there is praja, there are so many officers, all these things. So Bhagavän Kåñëa means He has got eternal, there is a system of service there, there are many already within one, an organic whole. And in the case of the material world, eko hambaho syama, aham means "My jyoti", there the meaning of aham is "the jyoti is also Myself, the Brahma is Myself. Baho syama, and there was a movement and they began to take from the equilibrium stage began to take many individual workings of subject, eko ham baho syama. In the prakåta , in the material world it is in this way it can be explained, and in Goloka, in the eternal world it is already within the system, baho, baho and eko.
Devotee : Now I understand. Yes.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Neho nanasti kinchana , nana is there and it is not nana because it is harmonised by one thing. Neho nanasti kinchana, here there is no many things, there is one thing, because the underlying unifying potency is there so it is not plural, plurality in unity. Though apparently it is many but really it is one, the many is the part of one. So neho nanasti kinchana. Sarvam kalpitam brahma, "All that we see it is Brahma," it means Sarva is there and Brahma is there. Çaìkaräcärya left the Sarva and accepted only Brahma, Çaìkaräcärya left nana and accepted only one. But Mahäprabhu told that everything that is told in Veda, that is to be adjusted. So eko ham baho syama, in Goloka the unit is there and it is a variegated nature, an organic whole. And in the material world, neho nanasti, eko ham baho syama, that is the Brahmaloka, the balance, the equilibrium is disturbed and in this way the ahaìkära , many individual material ahaìkära is created, as it is said here, mentioned here. One as Brahma, that is an equilibrium almost, then a push, bhagavad-vérya , a push is there and the prakåti began to move and so many individuals came out of Brahmaloka. Mayädhyakñeëa prakåtiù, süyate sa-caräcaram, and aham béja-pradaù pitä, in Bhagavad-gétä we find.
How from one many is coming? From one many is coming. How? One in equilibrium and when it is disturbed the many is seen, it is differentiated character progressing, and different individual ahaìkära , ego, is created, infinite number, and then they filled up this, jaye dam barjati jagat, and that is entering into the material conception, it is current, making it current.
Devotee : What happened, you know Vasudeva Datta he prayed to Mahäprabhu to "let all of them go free and I will take their karma."
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : There also, maybe here, the Hegelian theory of Panatheism, and this Aurovinda Gosh, his system is also like that, that Absolute conditioned non conditioned and Absolute is realising through this process to a final goal. Always moving. Finite is a necessary part of infinite, and infinite's attempt is always to make the finite perfect. This process is going on eternally, Panatheism. But Vasudeva Gosh what he says that "All the souls can be released from here and all their sins put on my head, I go to eternal hell. So I can't tolerate the suffering, I can't stand to see the suffering of the jéva in this world. So my prayer to You, release all of them and all the sins may be put on my head and allow me to go to suffer on their behalf." Vasudeva Datta.
Then Mahäprabhu answered, "Kåñëa is not a bankrupt party. What you, His devotee, desires, He can fulfil your purpose but He's not bankrupt. Your security is not necessary here, and you are not required to work on their behalf. Without sacrificing you He can liberate them. He has got such capacity."
koöi-kämadhenu-patira chägi yaiche mare
ñaò-aiçvarya-pati kåñëera mäyä kibä kare?
["If a person possessing millions of wish-fulfilling cows loses one she-goat, he does not consider the loss. Kåñëa owns all six opulences in full. If the entire material energy is destroyed, what does He lose?"] [Caitanya-caritämåta, Madhya-lélä, 15.179]
Even if the whole mayic system is abolished, no harm of Kåñëa in His lélä in Goloka. The whole negative side may be eliminated but with only positive, just as if one time the whole prison houses are abolished, the good country may not suffer. The again by this statement of Vyäsadeva Mahäprabhu says that:
punah sukha jiva mudya kori ved?
Then again there will come any culprits and the prison houses will be built again. If all the patients be cured, no hospital is necessary. Hospital necessary only because there is patient, but if all is wholesome and healthy no necessity of hospital. So hospitals can be closed if all patients cured. But gradually in time again a patient may come and the hospital may be required. And I like this.
Devotee : When Kåñëa was here personally, it is said everyone was liberated. Is that true?
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Ramäcandra took everyone from Ayodhyä with Him, and that was also mentioned in the statement of Haridäsa Öhäkura. Haridäsa Öhäkura told: "Oh," in the case of Sanätana…………"You already promised Vasudeva and both the material and the soul kingdom have all been released because they have heard saìkértana, Kåñëa-Näma from your mouth." But again Mahäprabhu told that, "How this brahmäëòa will go on? New egos should be invited here to fill up. Material egos from Brahmaloka should again be invited here to take their position. So some will pass away and some will again come to fill up…
Devotee : Newcomers.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Newcomers.
Devotee : But what about in the Western countries? Lord Caitanya Mahäprabhu He was here in India, and then in Europe they had, people were living, were they liberated also?
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : We may think yes, maybe. If elephants and deer and tigers, they can have, they can catch the influence of the chanting of Mahäprabhu, then what to speak of the question of distance. The vibration is so fine, the vibration, that wave may touch every soul everywhere. Not only one brahmäëòa but may brahmäëòas may be purified through the ethereal, that most subtle plane of existence. The vibration may go to help anybody and everybody. Brahmäëòa not only human sect but so many insects, trees, everything, the finest vibration reaches everywhere like ether. It is not impossible.
Devotee : We were having some discussions in our Temple, in the Mandir. One camp is saying that the living entities he is coming from brahmajyoti. And others are saying that the living entity was originally with Kåñëa, Kåñëa conscious, engaged in his relationship with Kåñëa…
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Both simultaneously true, both simultaneously true. That lélä , it is necessary in the lélä, in the pastimes of Kåñëa that just as we have a play here, someone hides himself, hide and seek. There is a play of hide and seek. Do you know that?
Devotee : Yes.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : So in the lélä of Kåñëa it may be of that type, hide and seek. When hiding is necessary he comes here and again he goes there like a play, not earned by karma. That is one thing.
Devotee : That's a special case.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : A special case.
Devotee : A liberated soul.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : A liberated soul can hide and seek, hide and seek. Like some lélä of hide and seek of that nature in Goloka one may come here, for hiding. And there is another thing, and another out of necessity, that is from Brahmaloka.
Devotee : They're saying also out of necessity that they're coming from a relationship with Kåñëa…
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Innate relationship with Kåñëa, that is inevitable and that cannot be denied, that is innate. Innate relationship with Kåñëa of everything can never be denied in any time.
Devotee : But how can it be innate in the spiritual world?
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : How?
Devotee : Because I was thinking in the material world our relationship with Kåñëa is innate, like a seed. This is manifest, but when we were in the spiritual world this was manifest relationship…
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Of different stages, the relationship with Kåñëa is maintained, is established everywhere because it is absolute one, but in different stages. In Brahmaloka stages, in prakåti stages, in Vaikuëöha stages, different stages.
Devotee : Because we are thinking in terms of beginning and end sometimes it is not clear.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : A stone is also matter, water is also matter, and air is also matter, but in different stages.
Devotee : So in Brahmaloka stage is dormant potential.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Taöasthä , the middle stage, you may take it.
Devotee : And that rasa…
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Prakåti and Vaikuëöha, a pure conscious and the material, in the middle, the buffer state is Brahmaloka, or Virajä.
Devotee : So the relationship with Kåñëa rasa in brahmajyoti it is in the potential or dormant stage?
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Yes, dormant stage, and undifferentiated character also. Because it is not plain, not clear that who is in which rasa, that is all dormant there.
Hare Kåñëa.
Devotee : Like seeds, Bhakti Charu Swämé told me that you once said that, gave the example of seeds, like seed of a mango, seed of an apple, they are all looking like seeds, but until they sprout you cannot tell the fruit.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : May be similar, cannot be differentiated, but when it sprouts then we can differentiate them.
Devotee : But in the spiritual world this differentiation is there.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Yes, in the real spiritual plane the differentiation is already completed. Living in different rasa, çanta , däsya, säkhya, vätsalya, mädhurya, their final stage they have attained and from that position they're rendering their service. And here, only differentiated, unknown who is to be recruited in which group, that is unknown here in the suppressed section.
[unclear recording here]
Devotee : …as my life's work.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : And in that work you done wonderful.
Devotee : Very simple work. The wonder is that Prabhupäda [ A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swämé] wrote so many books.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Of course. And to publish them, it was shown in the ITV television or something like that how they are being printed, packed, and put on the truck, and they're running. That was shown. Of course I could not see but I heard. My eye sight is very short but they say that these things are being shown there.
Devotee : Yes, this is under the direction of Rameçvara Mahäräj.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : He was the director there. And it was done very successfully. The book preaching of ISKCON that is a big thing. Our Guru Mahäräj also he liked and he gave the name båhat- mådaìga . That is mådaìga when it sounds it invites the people around, "Come to chant, come to hear, to listen to the chanting of the Divine Name." And books are also going from man to man, house to house, informing them, "These things are occurring, come and join." The sound of the mådaìga and the sound of the books - the books are more efficient than that of mådaìga, so båhat-mådaìga. The invitation is more intense and more perfect than that of mådaìga, by the books. If you only ask the people:
[Bengali spoken here]
One gentleman wrote an article in praise of our Guru Mahäräj that you sent, Prabhupäda [Bhaktisiddhänta Saraswaté Öhäkura], even a daily paper he founded, Nadéyä Prakash, a daily newspaper. Madan Mohan Madhava [?] the moderate leader of India told, "What is this, a daily religious paper?"
"But in this mundane world there are so many daily papers. We are told in America not only a morning paper and evening paper, every hour there is being published news. And Vaikuëöha news is thousand times more than the news in this mundane world. And one daily paper you wonder, but daily paper, thousands of daily papers may be continued. So much news may come from Vaikuëöha. It may be over flooded this mundane world by Vaikuëöha news. That is infinite and this is finite. The ray from the infinite when comes to the finite world, what can it do?"
Hare Kåñëa. Hare Kåñëa. Hare Kåñëa.
So a spiritual weekly paper, that was the leading paper he had - Gauòéya by name, and that gentleman wrote:
[Bengali spoken]
Generally, souls are sleeping, they're under the influence of slumber of moha means ajïäna, ignorance, and to rouse them you send your weekly paper Gauòéya from door to door.
[Bengali spoken]
And that is the messenger of Vaikuëöha, of the infinite world. The Gauòéya comes and pushes the door to be opened and to hear.
[Bengali spoken]
In no time, awake, arise, no time. Come forward to go to the Absolute realm. Here you are sleeping in ignorance. What is this? Such a great prospect waiting for you.
[Bengali spoken]
Loudly it announces that come and take the service of Kåñëa, begin the service of Kåñëa. That is its news - the Gauòéya .
Madan Mohan Madhava [?] the moderate leader, and Hindu Mahasava [?] also in the beginning, he also told that, "Every village should have a centre for your activities."
"But what do you say? I want to establish temple in every heart, in every man's heart I want to establish a temple for the service of the Lord." That was the answer of our Guru Mahäräj [Bhaktisiddhänta Saraswaté Öhäkura]. "I want to build temple of the Lord in every heart."
Who else are here, members of Governing Body, in Mayapur?
Devotee : Now in Mayapur? Kirtanänanda's coming here in five days. Jayatértha will come shortly, he's here now.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : He comes from London.
Devotee : Bhagavän Däsa Goswämé, he is here now.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Bhagavän Däsa, the South Europe preacher. And that Arabian gentleman?
Devotee : Atreya Rsi. Tonight. He's here now. We just heard that he's here. He has arrived.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Hare Kåñëa. Hare Kåñëa. And what about Haàsadutta Mahäräj?
Devotee : He may come later. He's thinking maybe he doesn't want to come.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : May not come? Then who else? Svarüpa Dämodara, has he come?
Devotee : He has come. Then there's Harikeça, he has not come yet, tonight.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Expected tonight.
Devotee : Mahäräj, the meeting is in the morning, just until two, then in the afternoon they have general discussions.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Bhakti Charu Swämé Mahäräj, has he come there?
Devotee : Not yet.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : That gentleman who came the other day, that Dayadhara, is he here?
Devotee : No. He's with Bhakti Charu Swämé.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Oh, in Calcutta.
Devotee : Yes.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : That Venkatta Raman?
Devotees : Venkatta, that Sanskrit teacher? He's coming in one week.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : And Yaçodänandan not to be traced?
Devotee : He's in America, in New York.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : Not Canada?
Devotee : No.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : And that Pradyumna?
Devotee : He's in London.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara Swämé : And his son Anirudha and wife Arundhati? For a long time they're here.
Devotee : In England.
End of recording, 4/5-3-81
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