His Divine Grace Çréla Bhakti Rakñaka Çrédhara Deva Goswämé Mahäräj
7th - 8th March 1981
Devotee : ... but maya is presenting a trap in the form of offering relationship which is not pure, which is not loving.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : That is maya, that is my own karma, that also eliminated from me with my cooperation with my help she has taken me so far. We won’t forget that first my consent took me to this illusory world. None else is responsible for that but my teeny freedom, free will, curiosity, came, took me here, colonising spirit. The colonising, maya proposed there is a good colony here, to me, and I was entrapped ‘Oh I shall offer so many enjoyment’ I came to enjoy and colonise in this new land, and I am captivated in the colony. The prospect was wrong, my conjecture, my plan was wrong, resign I am captured.
Devotee : Is that like getting married?
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : getting married?
Devotee : Yes
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : Maybe something like that, married. That is of course a [majori?] presentation there. But there are many who even doesn't like to marry, the renunciation, the …………? But they're of somewhat abnormal position, that is want to marry, and they want dissolution in the Brahmaloka there. That is eternal sleep. No married question there, but apathy towards the cooperation with the loving principle, the loving nature. No cooperation with that in the slumber, but not married. But rather, the married, the opposite to be married to Kåñëa and marry means to serve, not only enjoying tendency, but in any combination in any rasa with the spirit of service. The service, the dedication, that is the criterion to take us up. Hatväpi sa imäû lokän, na hanti na nibadhyate:
[yasya nähaìkåto bhävo, buddhir yasya na lipyate
hatväpi sa imäû lokän , na hanti na nibadhyate]
[One who is not motivated by false ego, whose intelligence is not entangled, though he kills men in this world, is not the slayer. Nor is he bound by his actions.]
[ Bhagavad-gétä , 18.17]
The cooperation, otherwise we can destroy so many worlds, so many globes, I may not be caught as a criminal. The participation, inner participation, is as an instrument of the universal will as if, and I have no responsibility for that, for the good of that.
Devotee : So in the end of Prabhupäda's [Çréla A.C. Bhaktivedanta S wämé Mahäräj] Bhagavad-gétä, As It Is, the very last sentence, he says: "When you attain Kåñëa consciousness, when the jéva attains his normal condition in the pleasure giving potency" - so I've always understood pleasure giving potency was hlädiné çakti. So does the jéva in pure Kåñëa consciousness have some connection there? The jéva in pure çuddha-bhakti, is there some connection with the hlädiné çakti ?
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : Yes. That is that the spirit of dedication can only take us there, bhakti, prema-bhakti, bhaktyäham ekayä grähyaù:
[bhaktyäham ekayä grähyaù çraddhayätmä priyaù satäm
bhaktiù punäti man-niñöhä çvapäkän api sambhavät ]
["I, who am dear to the sädhus, can be reached only by devotion born of unalloyed faith. Even a dog-flesh-eating outcaste who dedicates himself to exclusive devotion for Me is delivered from the influence of the wretched circumstances of his birth."]
[Çrémad-Bhägavatam, 11.14.21]
We can only go there through bhakti. Not by karma, jïäna, yoga, anything else, tyäga. Bhakti can live here. Bhakti means dedication, sevä. The tendency of service can only do that. The higher company, the company of a higher entity than myself, if I want, only through service I can connect with him. I cannot enjoy him. Is it not? Do you follow?
Devotee : Yes.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : If I want any higher connection, I can only connect with him in the way of service. I cannot, if I want enjoyment that must be of lower status. I shall have to come to it according to my sweet will then I shall have to enjoy. But higher company which is superior to me in intrinsic position, if at all I want his company, only through service, that is by satisfying him I can go to him. My connection with him depends on his will, not that of mine. So only if you like to go up, we can only do that through the connection of service. Not of enjoyment, nor or renunciation or indifference. Do you follow, the scientific basis of the service?
Devotee : Yes.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : Any connection with the higher entity is possible only when I want his satisfaction. Don't care to satisfy me. It is my earnestness, position, even highest position, that if he's satisfied he may call me, then I can enter, otherwise not. So without serving spirit no progress on the upper realm is possible at all. Only practices of shallow exercise, the taking the Name, taking the Name of Kåñëa, but without the spirit of serving attitude it will only be labour in the mundane world, mundane sound.
ataù çré-kåñëa-nämädi na bhaved grähyam indriyaiù
sevonmukhe hi jihvädau svayam eva sphuraty adaù
[Therefore the material senses cannot appreciate Kåñëa's Holy Name, form, qualities and pastimes. When a conditioned soul is awakened to Kåñëa consciousness and renders service by using his tongue to chant the Lord's Holy Name and taste the remnants of the Lord's food, the tongue is purified, and one gradually comes to understand who Kåñëa really is. In other words, the Holy Name of Kåñëa can never be grasped by the material senses. Only by rendering devotional service, beginning vibrating the Lord's glories upon the tongue, can one realise Kåñëa, for He will reveal Himself directly to the sincere soul.]
[ Bhakti-rasämåta-sindu , 2.109]
Kåñëa näma , rüpa, guëa, lélä, kåñëa-nämädi, Name and the sound, then the colour, the picture, then rüpa and guëa, His qualities, qualifications, and lélä, His pastimes, all aprakåta, of a higher type. And sevonmukhe hi, when we are with a serving attitude He comes down, He comes down within our heart, and then from there to tongue, there to eye, there to feeling, touch, and with this we can have His experience.
Devotee : But doesn't it say sevonmukhe hi jihvädau?
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : Jihvädau, the sound in jéva, and the picture in eye, in this way, svayam eva, of their own accord. Sphuraty, He reveals, He comes down, a subtle energy comes to fulfil, to connect with gross, and the gross, He subdues the gross and the Name dances in the tongue. But the electric connection is there, then only, otherwise it will be only imitation. And crores [millions] of lives we may imitate without any fruit. Nämäkñara bähiräya baöe näma kabhu naya:
[asädhu-saìge bhäi "kåñëa-näma" nähi haya
"nämäkñara" bähiräya baöe näma kabhu naya ]
[O brothers, the Holy Name of Kåñëa is never to be found in the association of those who are unsaintly. The external sound of the Holy Name is never the Name proper. [The Holy Name of Kåñëa is not mere physical sound; it is not lip-deep only, but it has a greater and higher aspect. It is all spiritual.] (Prema-vivarta)
Only with the help of the sädhus, the devotees, we may revive that something like electric connection that may connect with the higher place. And if He pleases to come down to connect with this world then this world can work, can show bhakti. Otherwise all imitation. The imitation won't take us there. So sädhu-saìga, the dynamo is necessary to move the fan, to live the life, birth. That is sevonmukhata, serving spirit. That is bhakti. Hare Kåñëa. Hare Kåñëa.
Devotee : The Christians, the want to relate to God in an enjoying mood. In other words they see God as order supplier.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : Sometimes, "Oh Lord, give me my bread." These are lower habits. That may be trap also to capture the ordinary people, "That you'll get bread, come here," and then they may educate about His higher qualification. It may also be possible. To entrap them such affairs may be arranged, "Oh Lord, give me my bread." But that is not everything, there are others also, advises. So we must do justice to the Bible also and where we differ in the spiritual conception we shall fight there, not only in all places, not in every. A good faith, by His sacrificing spirit Christ has drawn from the material world, "There is God, there is something like God. Try to come to Him." Then what is the conception of the God? Then we shall come to differ. He says that conception is fatherhood. We shall say the sonhood, and this consorthood, not only fatherhood. Not only always in the transcendental heaven world, but we can have as concrete in His own plane. In this way. Hare Kåñëa.
Devotee : One purport in that chapter, third chapter of Bhagavad-gétä , Prabhupäda [Çréla A.C. Bhaktivedanta S wämé Mahäräj] says that by recognising the urgency of Kåñëa consciousness, in that way one can regulate his senses. By understanding or feeling the urgency of Kåñëa consciousness one can begin to regulate his senses. So I'm wondering how to increase that feeling of urgency in Kåñëa consciousness?
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : By sädhu, çästra, kåpa, the scripture is there and living scripture is sädhu. Only by keeping his company through serving spirit we can imbibe power from him, and my consciousness will be raised up. Confidence must be increased, çraddhä , faith must be increased. How? Where there is faith, higher faith, I am to imbibe from there.
Hare Kåñëa. Hare Kåñëa. Hare Kåñëa. Nitäi Caitanya.
They're all hearing, they're hearing all, they have no questions? Ha, ha. You are representing them all.
Devotee : They may also have some questions.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : They may have.
Devotee : Yes, I have one question Mahäräj. The karma, when a devotee falls away, so many devotees, not so many, but a lot fall away, and I don't understand how the karma for a fallen devotee works. Prabhupäda [Çréla A.C. Bhaktivedanta S wämé Mahäräj] writes in the fifth canto that it is different than an ordinary materialist.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : What does he say?
Devotee : Sometimes some men they are leaving the mission of Kåñëa consciousness movement, they fall away into mäyä. So Prabhupäda explains that that is different from an ordinary karmi, someone who is a materialist, that what happens to him, that's different that what happens to a devotee.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : Again, repeat it.
Devotee : Like Närada Muni says, tyakvä sva-dharmaà caraëämbujaà harer, on that subject.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé :
tyakvä sva-dharmaà caraëämbujaà harer , bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi
yatra kva väbhadram abhüd amuñya kià , ko värtha äpto 'bhajatäà sva-dharmataù
[One who has forsaken his material occupation to engage in the devotional service of the Lord may sometimes fall down while in an immature stage, yet there is no danger of his being unsuccessful. On the other hand, a nondevotee, though fully engaged in occupational duties, does not gain anything.] [Çrémad-Bhägavatam, 1.5.17]
Therein a course of duty has been attached to us, to live to him, but very slowly, an indirect connection with the Lord. Mostly, what is the need of our inner nature, we are engaged in that, recommended to engage us in that duties. But only having a very little and remote connection with God.
But there firstly, consequence, that sva-dharmaà, that means the varëäçrama dharma , that is dharma , artùa, karma. Karma means sense pleasure, artha means to make money, that is to make the sense pleasure permanent. The money, if I spend the money I can attain sense pleasure of the tongue, of the touch, of the ear, then I can go to the music, I can go to the confectionery. So money means which can purchase sense pleasure.
And then, dharma, duty, that is to distribute sense pleasure to others, all material to others. What is the result? That I am keeping it in the bank and in the time of necessity I shall draw the money. Something like that. I am giving to this and that, that is I am keeping it in the nature and after my debt as reaction that will come to me again. In this body or beyond this body my ego will have them returned, as reaction, whatever I am giving to others, but in terms of sense pleasure. All the dharma, artha, karma, in terms of sense pleasure, the whole thing concerned with sense pleasure, and then the opposite is moksa, renunciation, to dismiss all sense pleasure in different forms, in giving to others or preserving or in experiencing, the sense pleasure.
Then, here Devarñi Närada says to Vyäsa, "That what you taught for so long to the world, that is making much of the sense pleasure. Either indirect sense pleasure, or to reserve it in the form of money, or distributing sense pleasure to others in the environment, dharma , artha, karma. And moksa, and you are speaking something to get out of it, but not of any positive gain. Withdrawal from sense pleasure does not mean eternal release, but there is eternal release. And you have deceived the whole humanity from the throne of the great äcärya. You have done downright wrong." In this way Närada chastises Vyäsadeva.
Then Vyäsadeva came to his senses. "What to do?"
Tyakvä sva-dharmaà caraëämbujaà harer , bhajann apakvo, you are very much particular they must improve in a gradual process, otherwise if they march quickly there is possibility of falling down, keeping the enemy behind. But if he falls at all, what does it harm? And what is the good in running in the vicious circle, going up and down, up and down, like a wheel. A portion of a wheel is going up and the next moment is coming down and next moment going up. It is eternally coming up and down, up and down. What is the utility of going up, only to come down in the next moment?
So, if for trying to come out of this vicious circle he takes an ambitious step, and in consideration of the improvement in the illusion he holds some contemptible position it does not matter. What little he has earned, that is the real thing, and that will help him really. And this imitating and false, imaginary going up and down for eternal times has got no value at all. So, one who has given up his householder life and takes to sannyäsa , but he could not keep that life of continuous Kåñëa bhakti and Guru bhakti, Guru sevä, bhaktasevä, falls down again, comes to take a wife and household, but only the time between for a few days what he did that is nirguìa. That is not to be compared with any loss and gain of this world. What he has acquired for five days or one year that is another thing, quite different from the gain of this mundane world, that is nirguìa, and that will remain permanent.
nehäbhikrama-näço 'sti , pratyaväyo na vidyate
svalpam apy asya dharmasya , träyate mahato bhayät
["Even a small beginning in this devotional service cannot go in vain, nor can any loss be suffered. The most insignificant practice of such devotional service saves one from the all-devouring fear of repeated birth and death in this world."] [ Bhagavad-gétä , 2.40]
A little bit of that higher quality thing will help him greatly in the journey of his eternal life. But these things going up and down eternally, this has no value at all. Going up, no value, again coming down. Going up means next moment coming down. This sort of up and down has got no value. But in their consideration, a man he took sannyäsa he could not keep, then he came again married and the society rejected him, "Oh, he a väntäçé, he's fallen, he went to fulfil his ambition but he could not keep the purity of life, he has fallen down. So he should be abhorred." But that has no meaning in this case. What he has done, to take the risk, and if you cannot do, whatever small you can do, you'll do in the right way. That:
nehäbhikrama-näço 'sti , pratyaväyo na vidyate
svalpam apy asya dharmasya , träyate mahato bhayät
["Even a small beginning in this devotional service cannot go in vain, nor can any loss be suffered. The most insignificant practice of such devotional service saves one from the all-devouring fear of repeated birth and death in this world."] [ Bhagavad-gétä , 2.40]
The service of this quality can save you from a great dreadful future. So, tyakvä sva-dharmaà caraëämbujaà harer , bhajann apakvo.
Devotee : So, now, Yudhiñöhira Mahäräj, he had to see hell. He is a great devotee. He had to see hell. So…
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : Sometimes what is taught counting Yudhiñöhira or Arjuna, that should not be taken as defect in their life.
Devotee : Yes.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : Sometimes to teach others it is like a drama.
Devotee : Yes.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : So, in that example what is taught we shall take that.
Devotee : Right, so…
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : Yudhiñöhira Mahäräj, the truth, Kåñëa is above truth, above law. Previously, just minutes ago I told that Kåñëa is above law. His sweet will is above law. The law given by Him to suit a particular stage of our life, and we must apply it to Kåñëa. When Kåñëa's direct order asks us to do something, the çaraëägata bhakta , the devotee, will do that without giving any importance to the law which is also given by Him for the lower section. So to speak what is truth, what is truth, that is to be analysed, that is to be understood first. Kåñëa's word is the highest truth. Truth, everything means to satisfy Kåñëa, not other things. His satisfaction, what leads to the satisfaction of the Kåñëa, the Absolute Authority, that is truth. And all other truths have been evolved to take us to the stage where we can do cent per cent always for the satisfaction of Kåñëa, truth. That much value should be given to the Lord. Do you follow? Am I clear?
Devotee : Yes.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : To you, but not to them, to all.
Devotee : To everyone.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : Very good.
Devotee : So, in the same way we have to satisfy Guru and his orders.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : Yes.
Devotee : So if we become disobedient to the orders and the vows that we have accepted in the service of Guru, what is our fate?
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : But we must understand the Guru properly, what he says. If we understand Guru, by saying such he wants this thing from me, and I must do that. But if I think that by doing, by saying this, he wanted to mean so much, I shall do that. I must be sincere to understand the direction of my Guru. Do you feel?
Devotee : I don't understand…
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : The Guru orders a particular thing. One thinks that he may do, by this order he wants this thing. Another, in his heart thinks, "No, he meant this." The difference in the understanding of the meaning…
Devotee : Yes.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : Then, what to do? But sincere of course, not artificial, sincerely. Suppose he says, "Fetch some water from the pond." I went there. "This is not all right. There is another good water here." One taking, knowing it was bad water, he took it, the Guru order.
Devotee : Yes.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : Another thing, he wanted it for drinking, but this drinking water man passing by, 'it will be better. I shall take that.'
Devotee : Yes.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : In this way it may differ.
Devotee : Yes. But what if he says at the time of dékñä he says, "You do not take any intoxication, mada." And then the disciple he becomes overwhelmed by material connections and he takes intoxication.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : Then, the intoxication, to judge it in a very subtle way I shall say that there are many planes one may feel in the - who can carry out the order in the different, in the higher planes also - the leaving of intoxication, that is an external qualification. That is not very important. You see, because if there be men who do not recognise Kåñëa but free of intoxication, we won't care for him. At the same time, a man who has got some habit of intoxication and he has got some faith in Kåñëa, we shall admire him. Devotee, he has got real faith in Kåñëa but this bad habit, that will go, that will vanish in no time. But free from intoxication but an atheist may be free from infectation, we shall avoid him totally. But this man we shall think to matter.
Devotee : So how do we distinguish the prakåta sahajiyä? They're taking intoxication, mixing illicit, asat sri sangi, we don't want to associate with them, do we?
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : If I have got the inner eye we can see that of Vamsi Däsa Bäbäjé. He was a bona fide devotee recognised by our Prabhupäda [Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Saraswaté Öhäkura]. But to deceive others, deceive the crowd, he used to smoke sometimes, and sometimes he used to throw the external skin of the fishes…
Devotee : Scales, fish scales.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : …outside his äçrama. 'The people may not come.' To avoid the crowd he used to sometimes do these things. So we shall have to know more intimately what is this, whether it is his imitation to keep us away from the ordinary mob, or his attraction is for the food or that intoxication, that we shall have to know. But generally we shall try to have a, both external and internal, both like pure, internal and external, both pure. That will be good for us. We shall always seek such company. But we shall at the same time may think that there are men whose intoxication is of no value, but that is superfluous position, but he has got high realisation, realised mind and soul, it is possible, maybe. But generally, we Gauòéya Maöh people, we shall always external and internal purity we try to keep up.
Devotee : There was this poet Ghosh, the Bengali poet, and he made some stories about Kali-yuga in the time of Bhaktivinoda Öhäkura.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : Girish Gosh, the renowned dramatist. He made one drama about Caitanyadev and wanted Bhaktivinoda Öhäkura to open that drama. But Bhaktivinoda Öhäkura hatefully dismissed him. "No. I'm not going in connection of this falsehood. One vesha, prostitute, she was selected to play the part of Caitanyadev, that one Vinodini. And then Vinodini, one prostitute, she was to go on with the part, that is she will play in the form of Caitanya. And he wanted Bhaktivinoda Öhäkura to open. Because it is a drama and he's showing over the life of Caitanyadev. Bhaktivinoda Öhäkura, "This awkward imitation, I don't want to come in touch with."
Then Rämakrishna Paramahaàsa, he went to see that drama and appreciated that very much. So much so that in the next day he went to that Vinodini, that prostitute. "Oh, you did the play very impressively."
And she was very ashamed. "No, no, no."
"If one can rouse devotion in the heart of so many by shedding tears, all these things, when playing for Caitanyadev, she is not an ordinary person." In this way Rämakrishna eulogised her. But we are not a party to that, we don't recognise that. Bhaktivinoda Öhäkura hatefully avoided this sort of imitation. "That won't help our real progress."
Hare Kåñëa. Hare Kåñëa.
Devotee : Utpätäyaiva kalpyate, çruti-småti…
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé :
çruti-småti-puräëädi , païcarätra-vidhià vinä
aikäntiké harer bhaktir , utpätäyaiva kalpyate
[Devotional service to the Lord that ignores the authorised Vedic literatures like the Upaniñads, Puräëas, Närada-païcarätra, etc., is simply an unnecessary disturbance in society.] [Brahma-yämala]
Çruti-småti-puräëädi , païcarätra-vidhià, with neglecting the advises of çruti - that is Veda. Småti, so many scriptures that come out - småtis are the scriptures compiled by the åsis on the basis of the Vedas to apply to our daily lives, çruti-småti-puräëädi. So many stories of good persons have been related in some historical way - that is Puräëa. Çruti-småti-puräëädi, païcarätra, that is another scripture coming from the Çiva, Çiva followers. As Närada-païcarätric, there are sattvic, rajasic, tamasic, païcarätric, they have come with some recommendation for our higher life. We may neglect them and create ourselves a new path and show an extreme devotion, that is only a utpät, a great disturbance to the world, that should be thought and dismissed. That is the purpose of the verse:
çruti-småti-puräëädi , païcarätra-vidhià vinä
aikäntiké harer bhaktir , utpätäyaiva kalpyate
Extreme, a new type of devotion towards the Supreme, which is not sanctioned by the previous äcäryas, that should be summarily rejected by one who wants his real good. Hare Kåñëa.
Devotee : Since the time of Mahäprabhu and sad-goswämés, how is it that this deterioration took place so quickly, in such a short time?
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : Generally we may think that good things are very rare. The scarcity in this mundane world, there should be scarcity of the good things, that will be normal, that will be normal that in the mundane world there should be scarcity, rarely to be found, high things, higher substances are rare. Not so cheap here of course in this mundane world. And it is cheap in its own domain. So kala dharma [?]
kalo pasaman sanjayan bhavisyami sati suta?
That was inaugurated in a particular first part of Kali by Mahäprabhu and we shall try guide ourselves according to the direction intrinsic acquaintances which is not any imitation or show, that we won't try to deceive ourselves. Self-deception should always be eliminated. Then of course we may hope good future. Self-deception should be avoided.
kapaöä te hoilelu pravese prame pur?
If we can save ourselves from self-deception then we are sure to enter very soon the domain of love, self-deception - kapaöä . Hare Kåñëa.
……..
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : ….he's a great friend of mine, he's utilising me in talking with so many friends that have come to save us.
Devotee : We are very fortunate.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : Gaura Hari bol! Gaura Hari bol! Gaura Hari bol!
Where are you from?
Devotee : America. I stay in Våndävana.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : Nava-Våndävana?
Devotee : No, no. Våndävana, Mathurä. Jagat Guru Mahäräj.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : And Gopäl Kåñëa Mahäräj, in charge of Bombay.
Devotee : GBC of…
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : Bombay.
Devotee : Northern India, yes, Bombay.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : Sent to Russia sometime by S wämé Mahäräj [Çréla A.C. Bhaktivedanta].
Devotee : Yes.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : That Punjabi gentleman, Indian, so Russia is pro Indian so Indian was sent there.
Devotee : Yes.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : Then another, Yaçodänandan.
Devotee : Yes, he's in America, French-Canadian.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : He came here, a good man. He was in Våndävana. Now he's a little indifferent towards ISKCON, is it? I hear.
Devotee : Yes.
Çréla B.R. Çrédhara S wämé : But why these good persons they are going away from ISKCON? We are to consider. Gaura Hari bol! We hope they may come again and join ISKCON and go on with the glorious work of Mahäprabhu and S wämé Mahäräj.
Gaura Hari bol! Gaura Hari bol! Gaura Hari bol! Gaura Hari bol! Gaura Hari bol!
Simply astounding .....
End of side A, 7/8-3-81
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